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Posted on 9/15/14 at 7:53 pm to the808bass
He was the exception, that's why there's a Wikipedia article about him. I agree that I would like everyone to exercise their own independent and unadulterated morality but most people form opinions and act based on others around them. That was the case in Nazi Germany and it's the case here today in this country as it is everywhere. People are people.
To express moral outrage and say that he should have just deserted or even switched sides is naive and idealistic. Most people don't function that way. They think of their friends, families and futures and they try to avoid harm. It's only natural.
To express moral outrage and say that he should have just deserted or even switched sides is naive and idealistic. Most people don't function that way. They think of their friends, families and futures and they try to avoid harm. It's only natural.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 7:55 pm to KSGamecock
Leave the old man be. We shoulda been fighting the Russians anyway. Stalin killed 40 more million people than did Hitler.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 7:55 pm to KSGamecock
quote:
He was the exception, that's why there's a Wikipedia article about him.
He was an exception.
There were hundreds of people who did the right thing in little and big ways. I'd guess none of them joined the SS.
And sure it's hard to do the right thing when no one else is. It doesn't make it less important.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 7:56 pm to the808bass
quote:
Or it conditions you to understanding people who follow morally indefensible orders. Either way.
"Mortal danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas."
It's super easy to be a moral absolutist sitting behind your computer with a keyboard than sitting in a trench with a rifle.
I don't expect you to be empathetic to something you can't even comprehend, because I doubt you understand what it's like to be under a regime that will make your family disappear if you're reading a certain type of book.
But hey, if it helps you maintain a sense of higher morality, take it.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 7:59 pm to the808bass
quote:
No. But all genocides are committed by immoral people.
I can agree to an extent, but I think it has more to do with the conditioning of moral people to do immoral things. Conditioning a soldier to kill an enemy versus conditioning an entire population to kill (or condone killing) their enemy is merely a matter of comprehensiveness.
We've seen it many times throughout history, and plenty of times even since the Holocaust.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:00 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
It's super easy to be a moral absolutist sitting behind your computer with a keyboard than sitting in a trench with a rifle.
Society needs both soldiers and moralists. Without one or the other, you will have a disaster. One would think we'd recognize that by now.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:01 pm to Patton
quote:
it's tough to really make any far comparison. Especially with the USA
Manifest Destiny, Drang nach Osten
Indian Territory Concentration Camps
Slavery German forced labor
Nazis: Genocide, territorial expansion, forced labor
Americans: Genocide, territorial expansion, forced labor
But I get it, it's tough because the Nazis did their bad stuff to White people.
This post was edited on 9/15/14 at 8:07 pm
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:03 pm to the808bass
quote:
Society needs both soldiers and moralists. Without one or the other, you will have a disaster. One would think we'd recognize that by now.
Some of the best soldiers are moralists.
Some of the worst people are those who don't understand what it is to sacrifice.
And you avoided everything, the threat of having your family forcibly removed because of literature alone. The feeling of patriotism.
Are you acknowledging that you fail to have empathy for these ideals because of a lack of experience, or are you asserting you would have handled this conundrum in a different way?
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:04 pm to Mizzeaux
quote:
I can agree to an extent, but I think it has more to do with the conditioning of moral people to do immoral things.
I agree that the conditioning can be subtle and easy and can lead to places that one wouldn't dream they could go. I'm sure the average SS trooper didn't dream of walking thousands of Jews into the gas chamber. But they did.
Can we do those things and then a decade or two later say, "Well, I didn't mean to do anything like that" and be taken seriously?
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:05 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
He would have gone all Inglourious Basterd on dat arse because he's incorruptible and not like 95% of humanity.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:07 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
Are you acknowledging that you fail to have empathy for these ideals because of a lack of experience, or are you asserting you would have handled this conundrum in a different way?
I'm trying to be charitable with your experience as I have no military experience. I cannot say with certainty what I would do, but I hope I would fight for justice and liberty in big and small ways no matter what I faced.
I feel the distance that most of us have from sacrifice has inured us to the necessary means required to maintain liberty and justice. They do not exist on an a priori basis. They have to constantly be guarded, philosophically and militarily. The militarily should still be aimed at truth and justice.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:09 pm to the808bass
quote:
I cannot say with certainty what I would do, but I hope I would fight for justice and liberty in big and small ways no matter what I faced.
Yep, definitely never served in the military.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:10 pm to the808bass
quote:
Can we do those things and then a decade or two later say, "Well, I didn't mean to do anything like that" and be taken seriously?
I don't know. I go back to my earlier stupid hypothetical, if we rounded up all the Muslims because there were 10,000 ISIS soldiers in the country with the ability and desire to do damage would there by an outcry?
What if some of them managed to kill a couple hundred thousand Americans? Probably a lot less outcry.
I'm not trying to draw any parallels between the Holocaust and my dumb hypothetical, but I don't think there are any real absolutes.
I don't think I'd stick around and participate in whatever happened, but after the economy is destroyed and I've got nothing to my name and nowhere to go I don't know what I'd do. I don't think anyone could absolutely say what they'd do in that situation.
Everyone that stayed in the country would be collectively guilty, but I imagine I'd probably go work in a glass factory and make sure everyone knew that what happened was fricked up.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:13 pm to KSGamecock
quote:
Yep, definitely never served in the military.
Well, it looks like I owe Gradual Stroke an apology. It seems it is rather hard for people to make moral determinations at all, even regarding Nazism.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:13 pm to KSGamecock
You are right. America has done morally reprehensible things in our short history. We have never committed the same level of depravity, and there isn't anything you can post to make me believe we have. I suppose that makes me a dumbass but I'm ok with that.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:15 pm to the808bass
quote:
Well, it looks like I owe Gradual Stroke an apology. It seems it is rather hard for people to make moral determinations at all, even regarding Nazism.
I think we're confusing some things. Me saying that I understand why people would have felt it was right to do certain things or think certain ways does not mean that I think they were right or that I agree with them.
I think Nazism was evil but I understand why it was successful and why people rallied to it and I don't think that those people were all evil.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:19 pm to Patton
quote:
We have never committed the same level of depravity, and there isn't anything you can post to make me believe we have
We forcibly conquered an entire continent and obliterated a people with a population numbering as high as 18 million while completely enslaving another group as property simply because their skin was dark.
History isn't a pissing contest but if it was our nation's past would score pretty high in the "evil" category.
This post was edited on 9/15/14 at 8:20 pm
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:21 pm to KSGamecock
quote:
I think Nazism was evil but I understand why it was successful and why people rallied to it and I don't think that those people were all evil.
If you drink and drive, you're a drunk driver. If you murder someone, you're a murderer. If you participate in evil, in some way, you're evil. I don't see a reason to disconnect those. We like to unhitch actions from character, but action is the manifestation of character.
Posted on 9/15/14 at 8:21 pm to KSGamecock
quote:
We forcibly conquered an entire continent and obliterated a people with a population numbering as high as 18 million
No we didn't, don't give me the trail of tears bullshite.
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