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re: Alright, I'm done. Anderson needs to go.

Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:04 pm to
Posted by ElDawgHawg
L.A. (lower Arkansas)
Member since Nov 2012
2986 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:04 pm to
I agree Dale. Very good points.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:09 pm to
quote:

Mike uses several different presses, most of which are used not to create turnovers but to speed up the tempo of the game and not allow teams who want to walk the ball up the court to do so.


1) Then he needs to teach his guys not to foul. Because it looks like they're trying to force turnovers at least half the time. I know they do a soft press a lot, but the players are still trying to get steals and it's put us in bad situations with the bonus.

2) Why? Speeding up the tempo is great, but we can't really press the ball ourselves if we're constantly taking the ball out of the net after a double bonus free throw or uncontested corner 3.

quote:

Because Mike runs an offensive not plays. That is like saying the only way to win in football is running the wishbone and not a prostyle or spread offense.


Which is why I've continuously espoused about the need to improve execution of the offense. Screens are pathetic. Meaningless dribbles on the perimeter slowing ball movement. Etc, etc. I've talked about our unwillingness to institute a basic back-door cut. I don't have a problem with the motion offense. I have a problem with Mike's installation of the offense and/or the team's execution of the offense.

And regardless of what offense you run, it's without a doubt IMPERATIVE that they have set plays coming out of timeouts in time-sensitive situations. Non-starter. You can't inbound the ball with 5 seconds left and hope to run the motion offense to get an open shot. No way, no how. Not consistently. Not if you want to be truly great. You have to have plays for those situations. Have to. I question whether or not we do because I can't think of us getting a clean look in any of those kinds of situations this year. But I'm getting old so I suppose my memory has failed or something so feel free to point me in the direction of some of those instances.

quote:

The closest Pelphrey ever got to running an offense was a poorly taught flex.



I think you're confusing me with someone else. I would never question MA's worth over JP.
Posted by DaleDenton
Member since Jun 2010
42353 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:20 pm to
quote:


1) Then he needs to teach his guys not to foul. Because it looks like they're trying to force turnovers at least half the time. I know they do a soft press a lot, but the players are still trying to get steals and it's put us in bad situations with the bonus.


They haven't been fouling in the back court, the majority of the fouls are caused from a missed assignment on defense, help comes over late out of position, etc.

Mike likes a ball denial defense, that is why you see guys flashing out in passing lanes, etc. This defense can be disruptive to the point a set plays team can't run sets, there is a designed element of unpredictability to the system.

quote:

2) Why? Speeding up the tempo is great, but we can't really press the ball ourselves if we're constantly taking the ball out of the net after a double bonus free throw or uncontested corner 3


Sure. How many unforced turnovers, bad shots have been forced from taking a team out of their comfort zone with tempo this season?

quote:


Which is why I've continuously espoused about the need to improve execution of the offense. Screens are pathetic. Meaningless dribbles on the perimeter slowing ball movement. Etc, etc. I've talked about our unwillingness to institute a basic back-door cut. I don't have a problem with the motion offense. I have a problem with Mike's installation of the offense and/or the team's execution of the offense.


There are no set movements to the offense, every screen has 3-5 options for each player involved with the screen, there are no areas of the court designed for one player to be, or a certain player to be. It is up to the players to make the proper read, selected the best option, and keep the proper spacing on the court.

A back door cut will always be hard to utilize with guards around 6' on the court in today's game, by the time the extra pass is made to get the passing angle, the cut is over with.

quote:

You can't inbound the ball with 5 seconds left and hope to run the motion offense to get an open shot.


Every team has out of bounds plays, that is the only time one is going to be drawn up with the intent to score, it would usually be done on the fly depending on what the opponent had been doing during the course of the game. Every other out of bounds play is designed to inbound the ball first, scoring options are always present to "steal" an easy basket from a team out of position defensively.
Posted by Pigfeet
Ark Mods are Fascists
Member since Mar 2010
19783 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:21 pm to
Some rustled jimmies all up in here, please resume, I'm still on page 5.
Posted by CtotheVrzrbck
WeWaCo
Member since Dec 2007
37538 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:29 pm to
Missed you buttercup.

These posts are why I want you and PWJ to have a radio show.
Posted by hawgfaninc
https://youtu.be/torc9P4-k5A
Member since Nov 2011
46476 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:51 pm to
I've been wanting to hear Dale's take on MA and the basketball team.

Bet he's been salivating to respond on here while lurking.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:58 pm to
quote:

They haven't been fouling in the back court


Yeah they have.

quote:

the majority of the fouls are caused from a missed assignment on defense


Probably so. But it's these pointless fouls in the backcourt, on the road, that has been a tipping point towards awarding teams like UGA free throws that keep them in the game in spite of horrific shooting.

I don't have a problem with the half-court defense philosophy.

quote:

Sure. How many unforced turnovers, bad shots have been forced from taking a team out of their comfort zone with tempo this season?



At home? Plenty. On the road? Few. I've been saying that we should reduce the press on the road because we're getting called for fouls that wouldn't otherwise be called at home. Marginal contact on the road? Foul. Marginal contact at home? Steal.

quote:

There are no set movements to the offense, every screen has 3-5 options for each player involved with the screen, there are no areas of the court designed for one player to be, or a certain player to be. It is up to the players to make the proper read, selected the best option, and keep the proper spacing on the court.



I never said there were set movements. And yes, it is up to the players to make the proper read. But it's ALSO up to the coaches to teach the players how to make those reads. And sit the players who disrupt the flow of the offense. You have to have repercussions when me-first players fail to execute, IMO. Even if it's just a few minutes on the bench.

quote:

A back door cut will always be hard to utilize with guards around 6' on the court in today's game, by the time the extra pass is made to get the passing angle, the cut is over with.


There's no need for an extra pass for all back door cuts, though. You can literally dribble the ball up the floor, make one pass, and - depending on the defense - score on a layup. Not always, obviously. But when we're getting hounded on the perimeter, I'd expect to see at least ONE after 20 games. We sure as hell have given up our fair share over the past few years.

quote:

that is the only time one is going to be drawn up with the intent to score, it would usually be done on the fly depending on what the opponent had been doing during the course of the game.


Some coaches, yes. Some coaches, no. Rick Carlisle is known as a master of these kinds of plays. And it's not because he draws them up on the fly. He would pick a particular set based on the expected defense and what's in his repertoire. He draws up plays on the fly SOMETIMES, but I refuse to believe you can effectively draw up plays, on the fly, having never practiced plays, and expect to be successful. It should be incredibly simple to institute 5-10 basic inbounds plays (intent to score within a few seconds) that are the "bread and butter," so to speak and adjust accordingly.

IF mike is drawing up everything on the fly, he f'ing sucks at it.
Posted by DaleDenton
Member since Jun 2010
42353 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 1:59 pm to
quote:

Bet he's been salivating to respond on here while lurking.



Normally, people around here can at least comprehend and understand what the team is doing or trying too do.

On HiV the only way is my way.

I don't have to resort to calling something I don't understand "streetball" or "ratball". The only coach we have had that I couldn't understand what he was trying to accomplish was Pel, but I don't think he knew either. Sutton, Richardson, Heath, Anderson all did things differently, no one was is better than the other, none of their styles is obsolete, no one style of play, philosophy, or system is more dominate than another.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:06 pm to
quote:

Some rustled jimmies all up in here, please resume, I'm still on page 5.


Rustled jimmies has lost all meaning.
Posted by cigsmcgee
LR
Member since May 2012
5233 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:08 pm to
quote:

, no one style of play, philosophy, or system is more dominate than another.




You got free just in time.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:13 pm to
quote:

, no one style of play, philosophy, or system is more dominate than another.


Which is why installation/execution is such a huge element and why I don't think MA's doing a good job.

Raise your hand if you're happy with our screens.

I mean...we've got this (supposedly) doomed to fail team because of APR issues. "Hamstrung because Mike had to get the APR up..."

That would make me think, since our APR is up, that our team could be taught how to set a screen.
Posted by cigsmcgee
LR
Member since May 2012
5233 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:19 pm to
quote:

That would make me think, since our APR is up, that our team could be taught how to set a screen.


I've also noticed that madden, at least twice a game, dribbles off his foot and turns it over. Sure would be nice if mike showed him how to dribble.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:26 pm to
quote:

I've also noticed that madden, at least twice a game, dribbles off his foot and turns it over. Sure would be nice if mike showed him how to dribble.



Skill and execution aren't the same thing.

A good coach could teach Dan Skipper how to set a screen. It's not fricking rocket science. So...answer the question. Are you happy with our execution of screens? Anyone? Bueller?

..........."Players fault they don't know how to set screens because, evidently, MA isn't responsible for anything."
Posted by CtotheVrzrbck
WeWaCo
Member since Dec 2007
37538 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:42 pm to
What frustrates me the most is the pieces of having a decent team are there, they aren't optimum but we got them.

What this team doesn't seem able to do is execute when they HAVE TO. The discipline isn't there, the confidence isn't there and when it is it's overconfidence and a bad shot is rushed.

Sometimes in close games you gotta feed the big guys, punish them inside, create fouls, force the defense to play on their heels and you can set them up to dominate them inside or outside whichever you choose or they give up the easiest.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 2:52 pm to
quote:

What frustrates me the most is the pieces of having a decent team are there, they aren't optimum but we got them.



Agreed. I don't buy the no talent argument. We have some SEC athletes.

quote:

What this team doesn't seem able to do is execute when they HAVE TO.


I think this is a symptom of a larger problem...not executing when they DON'T have to. They've been lazy regarding certain aspects of the system all season (screens, for instance). That mindset should be ingrained that the screens need to be set appropriately on every possession of every game (goal, not realistic). Not just when the chips are down. Get in the mindset that you have to do things the right way all of the time and it won't be so hard to do the right things with you HAVE TO.

This post was edited on 1/29/14 at 2:53 pm
Posted by DaleDenton
Member since Jun 2010
42353 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:06 pm to
quote:


I think this is a symptom of a larger problem...not executing when they DON'T have to. They've been lazy regarding certain aspects of the system all season (screens, for instance). That mindset should be ingrained that the screens need to be set appropriately on every possession of every game (goal, not realistic). Not just when the chips are down. Get in the mindset that you have to do things the right way all of the time and it won't be so hard to do the right things with you HAVE TO.


It isn't always suppose to be a screen when Portis or Clark go up and act like they are setting one then slip away flashing towards the rim. That isn't designed to be a screen set for the guard to use to drive to the basket.

You say, well, if they don't want to do it bench them. Harris has seen a decrease in his minutes, because there are guys at his spot who can be put into the game and play.

Madden can pull his hero routine with no consequences as there isn't a viable option at Guard sitting on the bench. We have two senior guards whose largest contribution to the program will be leaving with a degree, if they don't do that their time here will have been a complete waste. The reason why they got to stay while guys like Nobles got the boot is because of the classroom.

Wagner is serving his purpose in the classroom and practice, yes, you would like for that scholley to be used by a contributor, but at this time the APR has to be improved, graduating players is the only way to improve it at this time, yes it will improve itself as they work towards graduation, but there are still failing scores on the total from Pel's year, they were not as bad as Heath's last year but the situation isn't at a point where you can play musical chairs with the roster, it looks like Mike's team is getting it to where he can give a player the boot after 2 seasons if he doesn't pan out in the future.

3 years to the tourney isn't as feasible as first thought with the firing of Pel, the last class he signed turned out to be more busts than anything, the APR wasn't in good shape, the roster was assembled of the best he could get, not players to fit a certain style, loaded with Guards who were only good at one thing, no front court depth, unbalanced recruiting classes.

Mike has carried over a scholarship to try to balance out the classes, he has been willing to use it on JUCOs/Transfers who will cycle out by 2015 and 2016 as those two classes are full of good players we stand a good shot at getting who we would not have had room for with the way the roster was constructed.

Next year's class includes a PG and combo guard as well as a forward. The class after will include a couple more guards and forwards, etc.
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:50 pm to
Still waiting for someone to answer...

Are you happy with our screens? Dale, I'm talking about an actual screen. Not a slip screen. A screen designed to free a man. Are you happy with that?

You keep trying to frame my argument as if I'm arguing we have enough talent to win the SEC. But we do, like many high school programs, have enough breathing humans to learn how to set a screen.

Its alarming how many of you who are completely incapable of acknowledging ANYTHING that MA does that isn't perfect. Someone makes a legit criticism and the white knights immediately come in and make excuses for him.

Really feel like some of you guys haven't watched a lot of our games.
Posted by Pigfeet
Ark Mods are Fascists
Member since Mar 2010
19783 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:54 pm to
quote:

Are you happy with our screens?


only 50% of the time
Posted by ocelot4ark
Dallas, TX
Member since Oct 2009
12458 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 3:55 pm to
Which 50?
Posted by DaleDenton
Member since Jun 2010
42353 posts
Posted on 1/29/14 at 4:02 pm to
quote:


Are you happy with our screens? Dale, I'm talking about an actual screen. Not a slip screen. A screen designed to free a man. Are you happy with that?


Is Arkansas having a problem getting people open for shots? Open driving lanes to the basket?

No, they are not.

quote:

You keep trying to frame my argument as if I'm arguing we have enough talent to win the SEC. But we do, like many high school programs, have enough breathing humans to learn how to set a screen.


Your initial argument was there was a not an offensive system in place, it was debunked, now you are grasping for something to bitch about so have gone to screens.

quote:

Its alarming how many of you who are completely incapable of acknowledging ANYTHING that MA does that isn't perfect. Someone makes a legit criticism and the white knights immediately come in and make excuses for him.


Link?

I'm capable of understanding what Mike is trying to install, what he is coaching, what is not happening to cause problems with the results.

Legit criticism does not resort to the terms "street ball" or "rat ball".

I would agree with your criticism if it was soundly based, but honestly you sound as if you have no clue about the basic fundamentals of the game, let alone the various different offensive and defensive styles of plays and strategies that can be used.

The biggest problem with this team is shot selection, it can be extremely poor at times, while extremely great at other times. It has been consistently poor at the end of games in SEC play.
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