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re: New OC Melt Thread
Posted on 1/7/16 at 9:45 am to aggressor
Posted on 1/7/16 at 9:45 am to aggressor
quote:
First off he is a highly experienced OC who knows what he is doing
Bad experience is often worse than no experience.
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He likes balance.
So did Sherman. So much so, in fact, that when we were clearly destroying a team doing one thing, he would ABANDON it in the name of balance.
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He's not a great recruiter but he is a respected recruiter
They can respect him all day, but if they don't commit and sign, it doesn't matter.
We have way too much of this shite already:
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Posted on 1/7/16 at 9:54 am to Old Sarge
quote:
Spav was inexperienced, hopefully an experienced veteran OC can coach around deficiencies in talent to some extent
Before you say it's not possible....that's exactly what Chavis did last year
Sure they can. Not saying they won't.
Can they get around the deficiencies when we play teams like Bama, LSU, Ole Miss, Auburn, etc... VERY UNLIKELY. If our ceiling is around 5 wins in the SEC W then I think we have enough talent on the O Line right now.
I am not looking to add another win or two which might happen with the right OC. Would much rather have a great O line and an average OC than an average O line and a great OC.
Talent in the trenches wins. Period.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 9:56 am to Tridentds
But we are talking about 2016 and our talent is what it is this year
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:02 am to Old Sarge
quote:
ut we are talking about 2016 and our talent is what it is this year
If just looking at 2016 then absolutely agree that an improvement at OC will make a difference. I agree that they can scheme around weaknesses to an extent.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:09 am to CGSC Lobotomy
As I said, this hire isn't a sure thing but outside of hiring a Chavis type as OC (and I don't know if there really is one out there) nothing is a sure thing. I can just see plenty of reasons it can be successful.
I would rather have experience with a guy that has been running the show with Top 30 offenses than a guy who has never run the show as an OC by himself. Doesn't mean it will work but I am more nervous about Spav 2.0 which is what Meacham felt like to me.
The balance issue is more about those who think Mazzone doesn't believe in running the ball or we will have trouble getting good RB's. It's simply not the case based on what he has done. His record with QB's is pretty exceptional as well. His offensive philosophy is also based around having a small set of base plays and reacting to what the defense is giving you, not just calling a run because you have to have X number of run or pass plays. In the end though he had a fairly equal number of run vs pass attempts and solid averages for both.
Recruiting is rarely about one coach but the point is that he has a solid track record of getting good talent and we have already seen some early returns that are positive. I care a lot more about evaluation and development in the end and when you look at Rivers, Osweiller, Hundley, and Rosen who were essentially the last 4 QB's he developed that is reason for optimism.
He may or may not work out, I just don't see what is so terrible about giving him a chance and pointing out the positives to go with what seem like a lot of less factually based negatives such as "he's older" and "I can go to a UCLA site and find people that didn't like him" and "I was all excited about this other shiny object over here that I saw more often".
I would rather have experience with a guy that has been running the show with Top 30 offenses than a guy who has never run the show as an OC by himself. Doesn't mean it will work but I am more nervous about Spav 2.0 which is what Meacham felt like to me.
The balance issue is more about those who think Mazzone doesn't believe in running the ball or we will have trouble getting good RB's. It's simply not the case based on what he has done. His record with QB's is pretty exceptional as well. His offensive philosophy is also based around having a small set of base plays and reacting to what the defense is giving you, not just calling a run because you have to have X number of run or pass plays. In the end though he had a fairly equal number of run vs pass attempts and solid averages for both.
Recruiting is rarely about one coach but the point is that he has a solid track record of getting good talent and we have already seen some early returns that are positive. I care a lot more about evaluation and development in the end and when you look at Rivers, Osweiller, Hundley, and Rosen who were essentially the last 4 QB's he developed that is reason for optimism.
He may or may not work out, I just don't see what is so terrible about giving him a chance and pointing out the positives to go with what seem like a lot of less factually based negatives such as "he's older" and "I can go to a UCLA site and find people that didn't like him" and "I was all excited about this other shiny object over here that I saw more often".
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:12 am to aggressor
He has a track record of failure in the SEC. Period.
Here comes the goatee ketch spin.
Here comes the goatee ketch spin.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:12 am to Tridentds
I don't know how much of our issue at OL is purely talent related vs scheme and coaching related. We have plenty of guys that were rated highly coming in and they have size and athleticism. Maybe we still suck next year but I don't think we are devoid of talent in the trenches.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:31 am to CGSC Lobotomy
quote:
He has a track record of failure in the SEC. Period.
Here comes the goatee ketch spin.
You really are obsessed with Looch for whatever reason.
It is true he was mediocre at Ole Miss and Auburn long ago running a very different offense. It's a valid point but not something I put a lot of stock in. If he had torn it up in the SEC a decade ago that wouldn't matter much either.
My concern is how he compares to Spav and/or Meacham and if he is likely to be successful with the talent we have in place. I don't know but I do think he has a very good chance of being an improvement. I like his short yardage offense a hell of a lot more than what we had this year as he doesn't think taking the ball under Center is blasphemy.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:36 am to aggressor
quote:
It is true he was mediocre at Ole Miss and Auburn long ago running a very different offense. It's a valid point but not something I put a lot of stock in. If he had torn it up in the SEC a decade ago that wouldn't matter much either.
How did Auburns and ole Miss's defended look in those years?
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:37 am to aggressor
I'm not excited about the hire, but this is a well thought out and interesting post. Thanks, aggressor. 
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:40 am to Projectpat
I don't get why hiring a new and better OC is "melt" worthy
We improved at the position that's the bottom line. Yes he's not KK but he's still an improvement
We improved at the position that's the bottom line. Yes he's not KK but he's still an improvement
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:43 am to Old Sarge
That's like saying Gary Darnell was better than Carl Torbush.
Make no mistake about it. This is the offense version of Darnell.
Make no mistake about it. This is the offense version of Darnell.
This post was edited on 1/7/16 at 10:44 am
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:44 am to CGSC Lobotomy
Will you give up the Gary Darnell comparisons? Its not even close.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:48 am to Farmer1906
Would you rather I compare him to Torbush? Hankwitz?
This is anything but a home run. In fact, it's more like a double play.
This is anything but a home run. In fact, it's more like a double play.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:54 am to Old Sarge
quote:
quote:
It is true he was mediocre at Ole Miss and Auburn long ago running a very different offense. It's a valid point but not something I put a lot of stock in. If he had torn it up in the SEC a decade ago that wouldn't matter much either.
How did Auburns and ole Miss's defended look in those years?
The '05 Ole Miss team under Orgeron was just terrible and a one year stint so hard to get much from that.
During the earlier Ole Miss/Auburn days though Mazzone ran a much more run oriented offense under Tubberville that was more RC Slocum like. The RB's were the feature. When he went to NC State and worked with Erickson and had Phillip Rivers he started to change. Of course that 1 year stint at Ole Miss was after that. Then he did the one year Jets job and essentially got out of coaching while taking the HS job for a year.
The most relevant info on him imo is from '10 onward when he took over as OC at Arizona State. That's when he started running more of the offense he has now. Doesn't mean his prior experience is irrelevant completely but I see it as far less important. The SEC is a very different place than the last time he coached in it 11 years ago.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:54 am to CGSC Lobotomy
It's more like Tim DeRuyter. I just don't think we should pay 1 million for Tim DeRuyter
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:54 am to CGSC Lobotomy
Why don't you evaluate it on its own now the reevaluate it after we see him in action at A&M. Its not exactly like anything else before. And even if it was, it wouldn't play out just like another hire.
I am not pumping sunshine. I don't love the hire. But I am at least able to be fair about it. He has major positives and major red flags. I don't think we have a top 10 offense, but I don't think we keep the shitty offensive ranking we have now. Doesn't sound like a double play to me, but I guess I reserve the right to change my evaluation after seeing him in action.
I am not pumping sunshine. I don't love the hire. But I am at least able to be fair about it. He has major positives and major red flags. I don't think we have a top 10 offense, but I don't think we keep the shitty offensive ranking we have now. Doesn't sound like a double play to me, but I guess I reserve the right to change my evaluation after seeing him in action.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 10:56 am to CGSC Lobotomy
You don't know that. You haven't a clue until we play some games next year. Only 1 thing is absolutely and undeniably certain. He has a wealth of experience and knowledge about how to run an offense in comparison to Jake Spavital
Posted on 1/7/16 at 11:00 am to Warrior Poet
quote:
It's more like Tim DeRuyter. I just don't think we should pay 1 million for Tim DeRuyter
So another coordinator who doesn't coach a position. In other words, Mark Snyder.
Posted on 1/7/16 at 11:02 am to CGSC Lobotomy
Root fielded a pretty good defense.
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