Started By
Message
re: X and O on how to stop JFF. What would consultants/coach types say
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:42 pm to WreckingCrue
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:42 pm to WreckingCrue
Last year, Florida played press man with their corners and used a lot of spyies, blitzes and very shallow zones in the second half. Manziel simply wasn't a good passer yet and we couldn't open up the playbook.
Against LSU, Manziel was an improved passer but was still a freshman making is sixth career start. We moved the ball but LSU going to three down linemen and playing to make Manziel beat them throwing was smart. Even then, most of our miscues were receivers dropping balls, running the wrong routes and kickers missing FGs/XPs. Manziel played well enough to beat LSU even that early on.
Neither strategy would work nearly as well now that he is a very, very good pocket passer. If you make him beat you in the pocket, he can do that now.
Against LSU, Manziel was an improved passer but was still a freshman making is sixth career start. We moved the ball but LSU going to three down linemen and playing to make Manziel beat them throwing was smart. Even then, most of our miscues were receivers dropping balls, running the wrong routes and kickers missing FGs/XPs. Manziel played well enough to beat LSU even that early on.
Neither strategy would work nearly as well now that he is a very, very good pocket passer. If you make him beat you in the pocket, he can do that now.
0
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:42 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
LSU on the other hand used scheme and athleticism. Start with a 4-2-5, but they were too aggressive
LSU doesn't play a 4-2-5. They did start in the Nickel package though.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:46 pm to therick711
We were up 12-0 and well on our way to blowing LSU out when they switched to what was essentially a base dime defense (3-2-6, but with three safeties instead of four corner). That was the move that turned the game around because it stopped the screens, dump offs and PA jet sweeps that we were using. That being said, A&M did them a lot of favors. We should have been running the ball a lot more against their three man front and our receivers really fricked up big on two occasions and gave LSU gimmee turnovers.
This post was edited on 9/9/13 at 5:47 pm
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:49 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
Play some hard cover 2, take away the short stuff and make him throw downfield. I'm sure Saban will dial up some creative double edge zone pressures to really keep him in the pocket. I would keep man coverage to a minimum. Need to play zone to keep all eyes on him.
One tactic that Georgia used early against Connor Shaw with pretty good success was actually to drop 8 into coverage. It pretty much forced him to tuck and run every time for minimal yardage as the zone defenders could rally up to him. Manziel is faster than Shaw is, but he isn't going to win the game running every down.
and as others have said, Bama needs to pound it and control the clock to keep him off the field and out of rhythm.
One tactic that Georgia used early against Connor Shaw with pretty good success was actually to drop 8 into coverage. It pretty much forced him to tuck and run every time for minimal yardage as the zone defenders could rally up to him. Manziel is faster than Shaw is, but he isn't going to win the game running every down.
and as others have said, Bama needs to pound it and control the clock to keep him off the field and out of rhythm.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:50 pm to goodshotred2
Comparing stopping Shaw to stopping Manziel is like comparing stopping a bicycle to stopping a motorcycle. They do the essentially the same thing, but one is much more effective, flashy, powerful, and fast than the other. 
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:54 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
We were up 12-0 and well on our way to blowing LSU out when they switched to what was essentially a base dime defense (3-2-6, but with three safeties instead of four corner). That was the move that turned the game around because it stopped the screens, dump offs and PA jet sweeps that we were using. That being said, A&M did them a lot of favors. We should have been running the ball a lot more against their three man front and our receivers really fricked up big on two occasions and gave LSU gimmee turnovers.
And if LSU had any pulse on O last year LSU wins by 3 TD's
I can play!
Posted on 9/9/13 at 5:56 pm to finestfirst79
quote:
Almost all of the replies seem to be based on the JFF 2012 model (and I'm not sure those ideas would work, either). But he's obviously a better passer this year - mostly staying in the pocket and throwinng perfect 20-40 yard passes. And if that doesn't work: Ben Malena, Tra Carson, Trey Williams, Brandon Williams. I don't think any Aggie is worried about the offense.
I agree with you here. Some might think I'm crazy but I think you have to match his aggressiveness with your aggressive playcalling. Fight fire with fire. Run extremely high risk defensive plays in an unpredictable manner.
I would be as unpredictable as possible. Bring an 8 man blitz one play. Rush 2 the next and drop 9. Come with exotic zone blitzes. You see a similar tactic in the NFL with good offenses. Make him have to think pre-snap AND post-snap and have to process what is coming next. The unpredictability will at some point lead to paralysis by analysis, or a turnover.
Actually, I think defenses are going to have to have this mentality more and more, whether JFF is qb or not, as these offenses continue to get more and more sophisticated and nearly unstoppable. First came the spread, which makes you defend the entire field. When tempo followed, the game changed. Defenses must change with it.
Jump routes every throw. Take risks.
Sure, it's a high risk/high reward strategy, and they will score. But they'll probably score anyway and your D will be on the field much longer and morale will fall precipitously with every consecutive first down. The difference is, every so often you will get a huge sack or a turnover. It's like a break point in tennis. You have to win a possession.
Attention all defensive coordinators: It's time to match these offenses' aggressive nature on the defensive side. Take the game to them. Don't wait for them to be the aggressors and try to react. At that point you're playing their game.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:26 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
I personally think Manziel is going to Run like the wind on Sat.
I think he is better as any 2nd yr qb is in the pocket but not some giant leap in pocket passing. I don't mean that as a stab - I just think he was awesome last year too. I just think he ran first.
I have rewatched some games and seen many plays where had JFF taken off we would have been better off.
My guess is we worked on his pocket presence and spread ball around and showed all our weapons. RBs as well.
Then - JFF is going to start running like the house is on fire sat. There is no better time for A&M than when johnny can run or throw.
I get him in that position as much as possible.
Then you don't really know what to do? Let him throw from pocket? Rush him? Will be interesting
I think he is better as any 2nd yr qb is in the pocket but not some giant leap in pocket passing. I don't mean that as a stab - I just think he was awesome last year too. I just think he ran first.
I have rewatched some games and seen many plays where had JFF taken off we would have been better off.
My guess is we worked on his pocket presence and spread ball around and showed all our weapons. RBs as well.
Then - JFF is going to start running like the house is on fire sat. There is no better time for A&M than when johnny can run or throw.
I get him in that position as much as possible.
Then you don't really know what to do? Let him throw from pocket? Rush him? Will be interesting
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:31 pm to Mohican
therick - never said Shaw was better than Manziel, just that they have similar styles, and Georgia's tactic seemed to work. Could work when you have a check with me offense. These spread offenses are so successful because they force the defense to show it's hand and then take what they give them.
One way good defenses combat this is by giving them the lesser of two evils. Would you rather him torch you down field, or scramble for 10? Concede the 10 by showing a look that makes him read he should run. Great defenses use this same tactic to dictate what he should do. Show him a similar look and make him run right into a blitz. Make him think instead of just playing.
One other way good teams take away the spreads advantage is to grow a pair of balls and challenge them, like TCU and VT do. Play straight man coverage and blitz everyone else. Most spread teams only play with the ability to protect with 6, so bring one more than they can block. I would use this tactic sparingly against Manziel though. He just needs to make one guy miss and he's off to the races, and they have enough talent at receiver to beat Bama deep a couple of times.
One way good defenses combat this is by giving them the lesser of two evils. Would you rather him torch you down field, or scramble for 10? Concede the 10 by showing a look that makes him read he should run. Great defenses use this same tactic to dictate what he should do. Show him a similar look and make him run right into a blitz. Make him think instead of just playing.
One other way good teams take away the spreads advantage is to grow a pair of balls and challenge them, like TCU and VT do. Play straight man coverage and blitz everyone else. Most spread teams only play with the ability to protect with 6, so bring one more than they can block. I would use this tactic sparingly against Manziel though. He just needs to make one guy miss and he's off to the races, and they have enough talent at receiver to beat Bama deep a couple of times.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:32 pm to WreckingCrue
quote:
WreckingCrue
Nickel or Dime base D
Bring a safety into the box as a spy
Play single high man defense
Your DE's and DT's play gap control
Most important thing is DO NOT over pursue with the DL
Honestly, there is no way to STOP JFF. What I listed above is how to make him beat you with his arm. Obviously, it takes some good CB's to be able to do that, but not all teams have that luxury.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:33 pm to WreckingCrue
Keep contain and pressure up the middle.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:39 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:
We were up 12-0 and well on our way to blowing LSU out
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:51 pm to goodshotred2
quote:
I would use this tactic sparingly against Manziel though. He just needs to make one guy miss and he's off to the races, and they have enough talent at receiver to beat Bama deep a couple of times.
I think you have to grow a pair playing these offenses. Concede some big plays in exchange for turnovers. The idea being they are going to score anyways, so by going all out on D you exchange the big plays for turnovers and quick drives (as opposed to long, brutal drives where your D stays on the field forever).
Also, I don't think Johnny has truly been challenged with pressure yet. So many are scared to bring all out pressure. Yet, he is best at escaping tacklers one on one by changing direction. If he changes direction and there's two other defenders you have a better chance of getting him on the ground and in most cases for a loss.
But like you say, you have to grow a set.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 6:51 pm to Beer Bryant
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 7:19 pm to Texas Tea
First of all, against a mobile QB, zone is king. You want as many eyes back on the QB as possible.
With my CBs, I want them up at the LOS pressing almost exclusively. If we're in zone, having them in the flats also gives you a second force man for containment. If we're in man (few outside of CBs would ever be in man for me against someone like Manziel but we would man up on the outside some), you're still jamming at the LOS to disrupt their timing.
As some mentioned, spying with a LB is too difficult because of speed concerns so I'm in almost exclusive Robber with one of my safeties. People don't realize this, but Robber was basically developed as pseudo-spy on QBs. Against a passing QB the safety drops down, reads the QBs eyes, and tries to "rob" underneath throws. You play it pretty much the same only now he's also got spy responsibilities on the run.
For my DL I'm probably running a 3 man front. I'm also bringing them in tight as frick, almost to the point of being a Bear front. People forget how short Manziel is. Block his passing lanes when at all possible. Also, the best scramblers scramble up the middle, force him to go outside and you'll be better off.
For contain I'd have 2 OLB/Safeties about 3 yards out and up of the tackle box, similar to a double eagle set. At times they will rush, but they'll maintain contain and not get past Manziel upfield to create a lane for escape.
That's how I'd play it atleast.
With my CBs, I want them up at the LOS pressing almost exclusively. If we're in zone, having them in the flats also gives you a second force man for containment. If we're in man (few outside of CBs would ever be in man for me against someone like Manziel but we would man up on the outside some), you're still jamming at the LOS to disrupt their timing.
As some mentioned, spying with a LB is too difficult because of speed concerns so I'm in almost exclusive Robber with one of my safeties. People don't realize this, but Robber was basically developed as pseudo-spy on QBs. Against a passing QB the safety drops down, reads the QBs eyes, and tries to "rob" underneath throws. You play it pretty much the same only now he's also got spy responsibilities on the run.
For my DL I'm probably running a 3 man front. I'm also bringing them in tight as frick, almost to the point of being a Bear front. People forget how short Manziel is. Block his passing lanes when at all possible. Also, the best scramblers scramble up the middle, force him to go outside and you'll be better off.
For contain I'd have 2 OLB/Safeties about 3 yards out and up of the tackle box, similar to a double eagle set. At times they will rush, but they'll maintain contain and not get past Manziel upfield to create a lane for escape.
That's how I'd play it atleast.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 7:19 pm to Texas Tea
Nice to see some actual football talk.
If you're Bama you are making your secondary write "I will find the open man when the play breaks down" on a blackboard 100 times a day. Johnny tucking and running is only half the story. He extends plays and is always looking downfield for the open man, and his receivers know that if the play breaks down and they get themselves to an open spot, Johnny will find them with a dart throw across his body while pirouetting off his off-foot defying physics. These are turnover opportunities for defenses but I can't think of any team that has really capitalized on it yet. Johnny is looking for the open man, find him and jump it.
If you're Bama you are making your secondary write "I will find the open man when the play breaks down" on a blackboard 100 times a day. Johnny tucking and running is only half the story. He extends plays and is always looking downfield for the open man, and his receivers know that if the play breaks down and they get themselves to an open spot, Johnny will find them with a dart throw across his body while pirouetting off his off-foot defying physics. These are turnover opportunities for defenses but I can't think of any team that has really capitalized on it yet. Johnny is looking for the open man, find him and jump it.
This post was edited on 9/9/13 at 7:20 pm
Posted on 9/9/13 at 7:33 pm to FootballNostradamus
quote:
For my DL I'm probably running a 3 man front. I'm also bringing them in tight as frick, almost to the point of being a Bear front.
Then what happens when A&M starts running their 240lb RB against that front again and again and again and again no huddle so you can't substitute?
Posted on 9/9/13 at 7:49 pm to CGSC Lobotomy
When UF beat ATM last year...we went into the locker room behind at half time and our coaches made great adjustments.
Johnny & ATM survive with short passing game and his scramblking ability. When I say "short passing game" I mean it...Sumlins offense is a spread it out all over the field ala Houston and beat average defenses with continued first downs. What he didnt realize is that UF didnt have average defense. Our secondary was called for several PI calls and could have been called a few more times...we were all over their wrs because it was going to be a short pass and coverage could contain them and force qb into indecisions.
ATM had the luxury of very good wrs and a much better defense than 2013 edition. Bama on the other hand has less experience (snap wise) on defense and a few top OL replacements. Bama may have thought last years game was going to be a W just by showing up...it happens.
I think Bama will prevail...but homefield is big and special teams may decide outcome. If Bama can run Yeldon successfully and outgain ATM on the ground and not give the ball away...game is theirs.
Johnny & ATM survive with short passing game and his scramblking ability. When I say "short passing game" I mean it...Sumlins offense is a spread it out all over the field ala Houston and beat average defenses with continued first downs. What he didnt realize is that UF didnt have average defense. Our secondary was called for several PI calls and could have been called a few more times...we were all over their wrs because it was going to be a short pass and coverage could contain them and force qb into indecisions.
ATM had the luxury of very good wrs and a much better defense than 2013 edition. Bama on the other hand has less experience (snap wise) on defense and a few top OL replacements. Bama may have thought last years game was going to be a W just by showing up...it happens.
I think Bama will prevail...but homefield is big and special teams may decide outcome. If Bama can run Yeldon successfully and outgain ATM on the ground and not give the ball away...game is theirs.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 7:53 pm to reel_gator8
He's opened up the field since then. You saw a shell of JFF.
I know its your experience and it happened but its just not valid now. He's a completely different player since last years first game.
I know its your experience and it happened but its just not valid now. He's a completely different player since last years first game.
Posted on 9/9/13 at 8:04 pm to WreckingCrue
quote:
Hoping for coaching types here that know more than me about xs and os. Serious discussion.
Fox and hound defense. Bring Pressure from one side with intent on flushing JFF into the "hunters." I am sure we will never know but I thought that is what Chavis did last year. Either that or very disciplined mush rush with containment on the ends with tight coverage. He will get impatient and throw into coverage. Not easy to do either way.
Page 3 of 6
Popular
Back to top
Follow SECRant for SEC Football News