re: Would you change churches

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I would argue it takes the mind of a child to be able to look past many things written throughout the OT. Most people begin to question these things as they age.

I don't know how on one hand you can realize that these are antiquated views, yet on the other hand, apply it to your current daily life, in such a meaningful fashion.

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i sincerely understand that sentiment.

at the risk of sounding condescending (and i do apologize if done so) there is a lot of understanding to go on what happened with the hebrew people 2000+ years ago and the transition to everybody else being brought into knowledge of that God.

There were clear cut laws for the Hebrews like no bacon. (eff that noise,) no homosexuality, no interwoven fibers, no murder, etc.

some of those translate well to any society like don't steal and don't murder. Some obviously do not.

When Christ came and made salvation as we know it obtainable to Jews and non-jews alike, there was a big fight over "should these non-jews act like us and listen to all of our rules?"

Acts 10-15 deals almost exclusively with this.

The end result of that ends with the leaders of the church saying:

Acts 15

24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

The general idea is avoid violence, sexual immorality, and idolatry and worship of anything other than God.

it doesn't say ignore any and all other sins and pretend like they don't exist and you're good to go, but to give grace to those of other cultures, but these things are of the most important.

There is no where in the bible that makes allowances for men sleeping with men, women with women, sleeping with prostitutes, or extramarital sex.

now the other stuff like Bacon, i think you could make an argument that i'm being hypocritical for enjoying it. there's some grounds for that, but it's a conversation for a different matter. Homosexuality is clearly outlined in old and new testament as sin. just as is murder, hate, jealousy, dishonesty, and robbery.

Did people that the bible edifies do some of these things? you betcha. the image should be that great people can be very very flawed. it doesn't make excuses for that behavior at all.

now you're free to say bullshite and say it's all hypocritical and that's a fair criticism that i struggled with for an early portion of my faith outside of HS. Where i've come to the conclusion is that it's all a bunch of very imperfect people trying to practice a perfect religion and understand it. i don't think people that interpret homosexuality as not being sin are NOT all for sure going to hell, but i can guarantee that some people who do will, and some who decry it as the great sin will spend eternity by a bunch of homos for their lack of grace and love.

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because it's full of really crazy shite

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True, but I prefer my God imagery to be of the fire and brimstone, scorched earth motherfricker variety. Terrible? Sure. Effective? Absolutely. New Testament God is kind of a hippie pussy. Old Testament God will strike you dead just for thinking about talking shite.

I think I'd need full buy-in to the religion as a whole to really be able to view things from that angle. I haven't had that in quite some time. From the people I've encountered, to the hypocrisy of most who call themselves Christians, to the passages I quoted, and so on. I've just sort of stepped away from it all.

I do understand what you and Sarge are saying though. I just have a hard time viewing it that way because of so many other factors. I feel like there's always an excuse, if that makes any sense.

To me, it's kind of like a witness in a courtroom trial. He's caught being untruthful just once, it calls into question his entire testimony and his credibility. You read one ridiculous passage from the Old Testament and it calls into question the entire thing.

That is a perfect way of describing it. Combine that with the fact that these verses have been avoided my entire life by pastors and Sunday school teachers, and it feels like the defense trying to have a legitimate piece of evidence thrown out over a technicality.

If you've lied or tried to hide anything at all, then all trust is lost.

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are any of those cut out of the bibles in book stores?

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they probably should be

sorry, 12 year old cas4t wasn't too enthralled at the idea of reading Deuteronomy. Please Sarge, forgive me for relying on our pastor to not cherry pick what was worth discussing in the Bible.

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If you've lied or tried to hide anything at all, then all trust is lost

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I agree with this and think a lot of the church is guilty of trying to hide some stuff.

The Old Testament is filled with some rough crap. Murder, adultery, rape, children killing, you name it. I think trying to explain it away is chickenshit.

It is what it is, and saying anything other than "God is sovereign, hates sin, and I don't understand it but God's love shown on the cross covers the fallenness of man for the last 40 books," is trying to rationalize or defend God.

It is deceiving. A pastor should cover all aspects of the Bible if you are going to tell someone to base every aspect of their life on living by the Good Book.

What other reason is there to avoid it other than worrying that these things can sway someone from Christianity? Maybe not understanding it themselves? That doesn't make it any better. Idk, you tell me.

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I disagree with the chart, but it is humorous... and I think it opens up a debate that is healthy for the church. Here's the thing....

The modern day church is so focused on sin, and its actually contrary to the true gospel. The true gospel should never lead to conversations among believers about sin, doing right, not doing wrong, etc.

Jesus died on the cross to take care of everyone's sins (Romans 6:10). It clearly says in scripture that once we are in Christ, God remembers our sins no more (Hebrews 8:12). He cast our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12). And lastly, God is no longer counting our sins against us (2 Cor. 5:19). All because of Jesus' sacrifice!! That is how much he loves us!

I do not understand Christians who portray our God as a judgmental God who is tracking our good deeds and bad deeds... Many people falsely believe that God will punish us for bad behavior. But this is in direct contradiction to the word of God. Jesus took all of our punishment so that we could have his righteousness!

Being "righteous" is sort of like being pregnant. You can't be partly righteous, just as you can't be partly pregnant. You are either righteous, or you are not. Righteousness basically means "right standing" with God. And God clearly states that if we believe on Jesus, through faith (Romans 3:22), we have the righteousness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).

How can God punish the righteous? He sees us as perfect because we are covered in the blood.

This was all foreshadowed in the book of Exodus. When God sent the death angel to kill the first born sons, he passed over all those who had blood smeared on the door. It didn't say he examined if they were good people who went to church, tithed, adhered from sin, etc. If they were covered in the blood, they were saved.

Now as believers we are covered in the blood. We have the righteousness of Christ, and that is what God sees when he sees us.

So if God is not focused on our sins, why should we be so focused on sin? The truth is, the more focus we put on NOT doing something, we are actually more likely to do it. The more we focus on Jesus, the more likely our flesh will live like Jesus on this earth.

So that brings us back to the chart...

The Bible teaches us in Leviticus, and Genesis, that God clearly does not think homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle. We know this because it displeased God.... and you are correct, God also felt eating bacon was probably not a good thing. And guess what? Few doctors would say to their patients, "You need to add more bacon to your diet."

I disagree with homosexuality, because I do not think it is a healthy lifestyle. I do not think it is healthy for society or for a family.

But know this: Homosexuality is not a disqualifier to receive the love of Jesus and his righteousness. It is absolutely possible for homosexuals to be Christians. But I believe as they focus on Jesus and receive his grace and goodness, that desire for an unhealthy lifestyle will fade away. God will deal with it in his own way, and it is not in a wrathful way. He will lovingly change that person's heart and desires.

It's not our job as a church to tell people how to behave. We are to point them to Jesus and his love and let God handle everything else.

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Best post I have ever read on TD! Bravo sir!