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re: What do people get out of going to church on Easter once a year?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:41 am to Mattwells90
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:41 am to Mattwells90
And I don't have faith because I fear going to hell. That's like saying you're a good husband because Youre afraid of getting a divorce rather than being a good husband simply because you love your wife.
Same with jesus. I don't follow him because I'm afraid of hell. I follow him because I love him
Same with jesus. I don't follow him because I'm afraid of hell. I follow him because I love him
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Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:44 am to Mattwells90
But belief isnt a conscious choice. I can choose to SAY I believe, but to actually believe it in my head is something that I cannot willfully choose to do anymore so than I could choose to believe the sun rotates around the earth.
The entire premise of christianity is that one can simply choose to admit they are a sinner, believe in Jesus for salvation and repent. This is not something one can just force themselves to do, you either believe it or you dont.
And like I said, the devil you know over the devil you dont. I have no concept of eternity or paradise and worshipping a being I dont even believe in for eternity sounds pretty meh. Sure there is suffering in this world, but a lot of joy too. The idea of perfection honestly sounds pretty boring, for without pain it is impossible to know joy. The reason we enjoy certains things so much is because of the bad times we have.
The entire premise of christianity is that one can simply choose to admit they are a sinner, believe in Jesus for salvation and repent. This is not something one can just force themselves to do, you either believe it or you dont.
And like I said, the devil you know over the devil you dont. I have no concept of eternity or paradise and worshipping a being I dont even believe in for eternity sounds pretty meh. Sure there is suffering in this world, but a lot of joy too. The idea of perfection honestly sounds pretty boring, for without pain it is impossible to know joy. The reason we enjoy certains things so much is because of the bad times we have.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 11:47 am
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:47 am to Roger Klarvin
I think a more accurate portrayal of Hell is not separation from God, but just the opposite: it is being subjected to the unveiled and unrelenting wrath of God's judgment.
Hell is separation from God's love and forgiveness, but not from God.
Hell is separation from God's love and forgiveness, but not from God.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I think a more accurate portrayal of Hell is not separation from God, but just the opposite: it is being subjected to the unveiled and unrelenting wrath of God's judgment.
Hell is separation from God's love and forgiveness, but not from God.
The bible actually says God is glorified by those who are burning in hell and is an active participant in their punishment.
Most christians either have this false idea of what the bible says about God, or for some reason Ill never understand actually enjoy worshipping the God that the bible actually describes.
You can say all you want about mercy and love and Heaven, but any God who willfully uses the eternal torment of his creation to glorify himself (again, the bible says this not me) is a sadist. Period. He creates people knowing they will go to hell and then actively uses tat punishment to reveal his power and glory. That is the worst kind of evil imaginable, and the bible describes it in vivid detail.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 11:58 am to FooManChoo
@Roger Klarvin.
Ok I'll address these one at a time
1-paradise sounds meh because without pain there is no joy or no appreciation of joy. That's what this life is for. We remember the fallen nature of this world so we can appreciate the wonder of heaven.
2-belief in jesus isn't necessarily a cognitive mental belief. You can believe jesus existed mentally yet not be saved. The whole point of belief in Christ is a change of the heart to follow what he says. What he tells me to do is love others, be honest, humble, faithful, non violent, forgiving, caring, and tender hearted. Imagine if the whole world was filled with people who practiced those qualities. That's why I follow him. I love his teaching and what he stands for. Thus I live my life by what he says. I hate murder, racism, rape, theft, divorce, etc. likewise christ teaches against all of those things. I just find lots of truth in his teachings which encourages me to live my life that way. And this is all before any scientific evidence supporting the existence of god is even entered into the arguement. But I respect that you have your opinion and I won't curse or degrade you.
Ok I'll address these one at a time
1-paradise sounds meh because without pain there is no joy or no appreciation of joy. That's what this life is for. We remember the fallen nature of this world so we can appreciate the wonder of heaven.
2-belief in jesus isn't necessarily a cognitive mental belief. You can believe jesus existed mentally yet not be saved. The whole point of belief in Christ is a change of the heart to follow what he says. What he tells me to do is love others, be honest, humble, faithful, non violent, forgiving, caring, and tender hearted. Imagine if the whole world was filled with people who practiced those qualities. That's why I follow him. I love his teaching and what he stands for. Thus I live my life by what he says. I hate murder, racism, rape, theft, divorce, etc. likewise christ teaches against all of those things. I just find lots of truth in his teachings which encourages me to live my life that way. And this is all before any scientific evidence supporting the existence of god is even entered into the arguement. But I respect that you have your opinion and I won't curse or degrade you.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:00 pm to wmr
I went yesterday as a gift to the girl friend and so i could have a reason to wear the jacket and tie.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:01 pm to Mattwells90
So do you enjoy watching bad people get whats coming to them? Do you like when the bad guy is punished? Do you like when evil men are brought to justice? Whats different about that and what god says? People are all evil. We are made right through Christ. So yes he administers punishment but isn't that what the criminal justice system basically does? Does that make judges sadists for sending murderers and pedophiles to prison?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:03 pm to Mattwells90
It's evil for evil people to receive punishment for being evil??
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:12 pm to Mattwells90
quote:
So do you enjoy watching bad people get whats coming to them? Do you like when the bad guy is punished? Do you like when evil men are brought to justice?
I would not enjoy watching anyone burn in hell for eternity, no. Nobody deserves that, not Stalin, not Hitler, not Nero, not anybody. The worst part is that, according to the bible, those guys will be burning right alongside people like Ghandi, Aristotle and Bill Gates. Where is the justice in that?
quote:
Whats different about that and what god says?
God is omnipotent. He doesnt have the right to blame anyone but himself if anything goes wrong anywhere in the universe because, by virtue of his omnipotence, he knew it would go wrong before he ever created it. Any judgement God chooses to pass, he does so by first allowing the thing deserving of judgement to happen.
quote:
People are all evil.
People are animals, no more inherently good or evil than other animals.
quote:
We are made right through Christ.
And yet prior to the 20th century, no government, religion or other entity had been an active participant in more deaths than christian churches. It is estimated that the catholic church alone has killed over 50 million people in the last 2,000 years directly or indirectly.
quote:
So yes he administers punishment but isn't that what the criminal justice system basically does? Does that make judges sadists for sending murderers and pedophiles to prison?
No, the criminal justice system punishes individuals based on the extent of the crime and on the premise that they had the choice whether or not to commit the crime. God punishes us for eternity for crimes he knew we would commit before we were ever born. That isnt justice.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:15 pm to Mattwells90
quote:
It's evil for evil people to receive punishment for being evil??
Yes, torturing anyone for eternity is evil. The evil is amplified exponentially when you consider that the being responsible for the torture could have stopped it from ever occurring and didnt.
Adolph Hitler has supposedly been burning in hell for 69 years now. I could get behind a couple years, even a hundred years, of non stop torture for what he did. However, I am a finite being who had no control over his actions. God is an infinite being, capable of doing whatever he wants and capable of seeing the future and not only allowed Hitler to do what he did, he punishes him forever for it.
That is evil. Nobody deserves eternal torment. For all the evil he did, Hitler never tortured someone longer than a few years. Punishing him for eternity is not justice, its sadism.
This post was edited on 4/21/14 at 12:18 pm
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:24 pm to Roger Klarvin
I am not a christian, but if god decided to control the actions of every individual there wouldn't be any life. Or at least any point to it. We would all just be some big simulation. So he didn't have control over what Hitler did
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Yes, God receives glory for everything that happens. That's why the Westminster shorter and larger catechisms start by describing the "chief end of man" (what we were created for) as giving glory to God. We were created for that reason. All things, good and bad, happen for God's glory.
The bible actually says God is glorified by those who are burning in hell and is an active participant in their punishment.
quote:I agree that many Christians and non-Christians (who think they know what the Bible teaches) have the wrong view of God. Usually what it boils down to, though, is that we have too high a view of ourselves (humanity) or too low of a view of God.
Most christians either have this false idea of what the bible says about God, or for some reason Ill never understand actually enjoy worshipping the God that the bible actually describes.
If you understand why Christians (who know the truth about God) still enjoy worshiping Him, you would probably be a believer, yourself. It takes a conversion by God, though, so it's not something someone can explain to you or anyone else and then have you believe it.
quote:A sadist is someone who actually enjoys the torments of others. God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked (Eze 33:11). Getting glory and getting amusement aren't the same thing.
You can say all you want about mercy and love and Heaven, but any God who willfully uses the eternal torment of his creation to glorify himself (again, the bible says this not me) is a sadist. Period. He creates people knowing they will go to hell and then actively uses tat punishment to reveal his power and glory. That is the worst kind of evil imaginable, and the bible describes it in vivid detail.
The problem you and others who share that view have is that you assume humans are good and deserve good things and deserve Heaven (if there is such a thing), but that's not the case. If you compare one human to another, you might think one is better than the other or more deserving than the other, but the issue isn't how we compare to each other, but how we compare to a perfect and holy God. God, being perfect and holy, cannot exist with us sinners in Heaven without cleansing us of our sin.
Instead of saying that it is unfair (or that God is unjust) that God condemns people to Hell, perhaps we should start viewing it as God is unfair to allow some to go to Heaven. We all deserve Hell. No one deserves Heaven (based on God's standard). Humans are totally depraved.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:29 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
You keep insinuating that god sends people to hell. We all have a choice to go or not.
And as for the Christian church causing more death than anything else, you gotta link for that?
And as for the Christian church causing more death than anything else, you gotta link for that?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:32 pm to diddydirtyAubie
quote:
I always laugh when you can't find a seat on Easter. You might as well just sit at home like you do every other week. One hour a year to worship the creator won't be opening any doors.
I love it when the sanctuary is filled with folks I don't know. What a great opportunity. As a church member, you can either scoff at these strangers or welcome them and make them feel at home. I choose to welcome them and I hope they are overwhelmed with hospitality.
The Bible tells us to take God's word to the world, to be his light. That can be a difficult task for most Christians. This is one Sunday where the world comes to you, be careful how you react.
My minister directly addressed these folks this Sunday. Paraphasing, he said- Maybe you came with your Grandmother or Sister or Neighbor and you don't believe, sing or pray. That's okay. You're here and we're happy you are. We'd love for you to come back. You don't have to believe, sing or pray, just keep coming back. We can believe, sing and pray until maybe you can.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:33 pm to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
I am not a christian, but if god decided to control the actions of every individual there wouldn't be any life. Or at least any point to it. We would all just be some big simulation. So he didn't have control over what Hitler did
Not true, he could give us "free will" just without the capacity to do evil. We could do anything we wanted within the context of a sinless world. Do christians consider it a lack of free will that god didnt give us the ability to fly? Our free will is determined by our state of existence. If we were created incapable of sinning, it would be no different than how we view our inability to fly. We just cant do it, therefore it doesnt violate our free will.
Besides, he is omnipotent. All we have is the illusion of free will if even one omnipotent consciousness exists. He knew what Hitler would do from the dawn of creation and created him anyway.
This is a big part of why I dont believe, christian doctrine when carried all the way to its logical conclusion is just a philosophical and logical mess that the church has spent 2000 years trying to wiggle around.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:36 pm to Roger Klarvin
You do realize a world free of sin is heaven which is exactly the place you claim to not want to go to?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:39 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Depends on which christian doctrine you are talking about.
This is a big part of why I dont believe, christian doctrine when carried all the way to its logical conclusion is just a philosophical and logical mess that the church has spent 2000 years trying to wiggle around.
Not all of us believe in the freedom of the will. Some of us believe in the enslavement of the will (to sin) and the freedom of volition to act according to that enslaved will.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:41 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The problem you and others who share that view have is that you assume humans are good and deserve good things and deserve Heaven (if there is such a thing), but that's not the case.
No, I dont. I dont believe most people "deserve" Heaven. We do nasty things to each other on the regular. All I said was that nobody deserves eternal hell. Those are wildly different statements.
quote:
If you compare one human to another, you might think one is better than the other or more deserving than the other, but the issue isn't how we compare to each other, but how we compare to a perfect and holy God. God, being perfect and holy, cannot exist with us sinners in Heaven without cleansing us of our sin.
I used to go through life viewing the world like this, and Im happy to say life is so much better when you do away with this idea. Christianity forces me to say that good nonbelievers are just as evil as evil as the worst mass murderers in history.
And God is omnipotent, he can do anything he wants including going against his very nature. Anyone who is in hell is in hell because he wants it to be so, not because his hands are tied. Omniscience and infinite power removes this tie on him.
Christianity desperately wants god to be all powerful, but then when the implications of that power are pointed out you want to place limitations on what he is capable of. You cant have it both ways. Either god is infinitely powerful and can forgive anyone just but choosing to do so, or he isnt infinitely powerful.
This is something that the ancient greek and roman philosophers realized and its why their gods did not possess omniscience. Many of them wrote about the terror that omniscience presented and why even the gods couldnt possess such a power. They realized, unlike ignorant and illiterate hebrews in the middle east, the implications of omniscience.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:47 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Instead of saying that it is unfair (or that God is unjust) that God condemns people to Hell, perhaps we should start viewing it as God is unfair to allow some to go to Heaven. We all deserve Hell. No one deserves Heaven (based on God's standard). Humans are totally depraved.
You keep saying this and yet offer no argument for it.
If humans are totally depraved, its because God allowed it to be so. He is the all powerful creator who sees both the beginning and the end of time simultaneously. He knew how awful this creation plan of his would end and still did it.
If God is all powerful, completely omniscient and free from any other superior being forcing his hand and people still end up in hell it is his fault. This is a philosophical idea older than christianity itself and one in which only christian philosophers try to get around,
Omniscience and free will cannot coexist. If free will doesnt exist, God is at fault for whatever happens to us. This is philosophy 101. Aristotle rolls in his grave every time a christian apologist argues against this.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:47 pm to diddydirtyAubie
quote:
What do people get out of going to church on Easter once a year?
Good question. My roommate asked me why I didn't go to church Sunday. I said well I dont go any other Sunday of the year so not sure really why going 1 Sunday a year is going to do anything.
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