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re: 5 babies infected with measles at a Chicago daycare
Posted on 2/6/15 at 2:58 pm to UMTigerRebel
Posted on 2/6/15 at 2:58 pm to UMTigerRebel
I said I don't have an easy answer and that the whole issue is not near as simple as some are making out.
Seems simple to you, though, which is nice. Hope it remains that way for you and yours.
Seems simple to you, though, which is nice. Hope it remains that way for you and yours.
2
Posted on 2/6/15 at 2:58 pm to 5thTiger
quote:
Most if not all schools do not require kids to eat school lunch, they can bring their own from home if they wish. What they eat will not affect the children around them.
LINK
LINK
LINK
While all of these incidents led the schools to back down, the fact that the state looks at what kids pack for lunch at all is wrong.
quote:
Vaccines are a different story. What they did or did not receive WILL potentially affect the children around them.
This logic can be applied to anything thanks to Medicare and the ACA. If you don't eat well, then I have to pay more for insurance, therefore it effects me, therefore I can say what you can eat.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:00 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
I don't have the answer, but it is not as simple a question as some are making it out to be.
Sure it is
The rate of anaphylactic reactions among children to vaccines is between 0.65 and 1.5 per million. The rate of death from such reactions is about half that number, meaning around 1 in 2 million children will directly die as the result of a vaccine.
The odds of such a reaction are so small that it simply isn't worth factoring into policy decisions, medically or politically. There isn't a doctor alive who will tell you the risks of vaccines outweigh the risks of losing our herd immunity to measles or diphtheria.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:02 pm to GoldenDawg
I'm looking at the issue objectively. You're looking at the issue emotionally, and I don't blame you.
And again, no one is being forced to do anything. You make choices, and that's fine.
And again, no one is being forced to do anything. You make choices, and that's fine.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:06 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
I said I don't have an easy answer and that the whole issue is not near as simple as some are making out.
Seems simple to you, though, which is nice. Hope it remains that way for you and yours.
This is an example of how the illogical human mind works. We take personal experience and shape our beliefs around it.
What you are doing is akin to the parents of a five year old who died of an aneurysm arguing that annual aneurysm screening should be the norm for all children. It is such an exceptionally rare event that such a suggestion is completely illogical, but the parents' perception has been shaped entirely by a personal emotional experience.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:07 pm to Roger Klarvin
Hyperbole. Makes for a nice convincing talking point.
But it shouldn't be used in real debate (as opposed to campaigns or Penn and Teller silliness).
You might want to back off your statement about the "no doctor alive" nonsense. And be glad I don't have you under oath in trial or deposition.
But you are a timely example of what I meant by this being more complicated than most realize.
So thanks for that, anyway.
But it shouldn't be used in real debate (as opposed to campaigns or Penn and Teller silliness).
You might want to back off your statement about the "no doctor alive" nonsense. And be glad I don't have you under oath in trial or deposition.
But you are a timely example of what I meant by this being more complicated than most realize.
So thanks for that, anyway.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:09 pm to UMTigerRebel
quote:
I don't blame you.
I am
Life is unfair and often sucks. That is no excuse to bury your head in the sand and claim that because the world wronged you we should question objective realities.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:12 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
Hyperbole. Makes for a nice convincing talking point.
Nothing in my post was hyperbole. Find me one quote from a board certified physician claiming the risks of vaccines outweigh the risks of society losing our herd immunity.
quote:
But you are a timely example of what I meant by this being more complicated than most realize.
The only thing I exemplify in this instance is someone who knows far, far more about this issue than you do. Scientifically, politically, every way imaginable.
I have sympathy for people who have lost. I have none for those who wish to take that loss out on society.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:16 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
This logic can be applied to anything thanks to Medicare and the ACA. If you don't eat well, then I have to pay more for insurance, therefore it effects me, therefore I can say what you can eat.
These are indirect consequences. Some people eat like shite for their entire lives and live to be 80+ with few health issues.
What we are discussing are direct consequences, and not those merely rooted in poor decisions. We are talking about direct consequences based on nothing but pure ignorance and lies. It would be one thing there were actually statistically significant risks from children getting vaccines, and they had to be weighed against the risk of disease.
However, that simply isn't the case. The risk of health problems due to vaccines is microscopic.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:22 pm to Roger Klarvin
Yeah Roger, you know more than anyone in history on this topic. In any discipline and in all its shapes and forms. Therefore you have nothing to learn from anyone and don't have to listen to contrary opinions. You can just automatically label anyone who disagrees with you an enemy of society.
Yet you already have been amazingly wrong on your doctor comment.
Hmmm.
Anyway, I can't claim your omniscience on the topic but I do know a little about it and have even testified in congress on the subject.
Even so, I would never claim all knowledge on this one. I know better.
But hey - shine on you crazy diamond!
Yet you already have been amazingly wrong on your doctor comment.
Hmmm.
Anyway, I can't claim your omniscience on the topic but I do know a little about it and have even testified in congress on the subject.
Even so, I would never claim all knowledge on this one. I know better.
But hey - shine on you crazy diamond!
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:25 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
But you are a timely example of what I meant by this being more complicated than most realize.
It's really not.
Go take a look at Japan statistics when the whole cell pertussis vaccine was taken out of vaccination protocols due to ADEs. They found out the risk of reactions didn't outweigh the benefit of vaccinating for the disease.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:33 pm to GoldenDawg
No doctor worth treating you or your family would tell you that the mIniscule risk of an adverse reaction to a vaccine is greater than the risk of losing herd immunity and the risks of your child catching the disease. And that's a fact. Because if they do, they ignore direct evidence to the contrary.
This post was edited on 2/6/15 at 3:41 pm
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:34 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
Even in the days of the polio epidemic, vaccinations were not mandatory.
Look, I am all for local school districts, pediatricians, day care centers, etc. all requiring vaccinations for attendees. But the principle of this is the federal government should not be telling parents how to raise their kids, including things like vaccinations.
I know some on here believe 'it takes a village' and whatnot, and that's fine. But I'm a parent, and I'll be damned if you get to tell me how to raise my kid. You didn't sit up all night with a screaming child, you don't get to tell me I'm not patient enough. etc etc.
If the government can say what my kid gets as far as vaccinations, then the government gets to say what I can feed my child. And as we can all see from a certain school lunch program, that's asking for stupid.
At what point do we say enough of this "the government can't tell me what to do" bullshite. There are things that make society better. Do you want to make school a requirement? Why should the government tell my kids I have to educate them? frick em, right? No. Am educated population is better for everyone. Some dumbass parents wouldn't educate their kids if we didn't make them. Just like this shite. Vaccinations make sense and make society at large safer. This isn't crossing some libertarian line it disgusts me that people warp the idea of personal and economic freedom beyond the point of common sense. This will lead to deaths. We have mandated vaccines for years and society has moved along just fine. Even one child dying as a result of all this shite is far too many. Would you really endorse a law that made mandating children don't have to get vaccines knowing that it will kill babies too young to get vaccines their parents want to get for them. I just find it insane. I am pretty libertarian I just don't see how this isn't common sense.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:35 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:Except that it isn't. Like a lot of things, emotion comes into play and can complicate it for some people, which is understandable in cases like yours. I'm sorry for your family's loss, that's awful and no one should ever have to go through something like that.
But you are a timely example of what I meant by this being more complicated than most realize.
But from an objective standpoint, there just isn't an argument there regarding the statistics for adverse reactions vs risks of not vaccinating.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:51 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
Yet you already have been amazingly wrong on your doctor comment.
Still waiting for that quote.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 3:59 pm to Roger Klarvin
He must be talking about someone like Dr. Bob Sears.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 4:21 pm to Roger Klarvin
You'll be waiting a while 
you won't find that quote from a credible doc.
you won't find that quote from a credible doc. quote:Speaking of not being credible
Sears
This post was edited on 2/6/15 at 4:22 pm
Posted on 2/6/15 at 4:41 pm to UMTigerRebel
quote:
Dr. Bob Sears.
Bob Sears won't tell anyone that the risks of vaccines outweigh the risks of losing herd immunity. The reason he won't say that is because it's as absurd as saying the risks of seatbelts outweigh the risks of being thrown through a windshield.
Now, he MIGHT argue that the risks of vaccines outweigh the current risk of any individual person getting the diseases being vaccinated against. Now this isn't true, but it's a much more believable statement to lay people.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 5:13 pm to Roger Klarvin
Anyone, especially doctors that suggest not getting vaccinated should be mocked mercilessly.
Posted on 2/6/15 at 5:28 pm to GoldenDawg
quote:
There are certainly public policy considerations, but it goes both ways. Forcing parents to have their kids injected, knowing some healthy kids are going to die (or worse), can also be seen as something against public policy.
No one is forcing them too (which is obviously why we're in this mess to begin with).
quote:
I don't have the answer, but it is not as simple a question as some are making it out to be.
Sure it is. It's as simple as if they make the choice to not vaccinate a healthy child then they should also be making the choice to not be able to send their child to a public school, daycare, or whatever else is chosen in order to protect others effected by this decision.
No one is forcing the immunizations but if you want that "freedom" then you should have to face the consequences of such a decision.
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