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Posted on 3/21/17 at 7:55 am to djsdawg
quote:
Harrick won a dance game and had uga in position to win a few more when the plug got pulled.
Fox hasn't won a dance game but the program is no doubt better than it was when he arrived.
Why not aim to do what we have a history of doing 4 times in a row?
I'm not sure why winning a tournament game is some great barometer of success. 12 and 13 seeds win those regularly. Not sure that's the best measure. Getting to the second weekend is a much more substantial accomplishment.
Harrick cheated his arse off. Is UGA going to let the new coach do that?
If we make no bigger changes, this isn't going get any better without cheating again. Basketball is a dirty game. If UGA's going to be successful at it, we're going to need to do something a lot bigger and flashier than hiring some random mid-major coach.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 7:56 am
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:07 am to Crowknowsbest
Durham led us to final 4, tubby was a last second shot from elite 8, and chances are we at least make sweet 16 under harrick.
For us, simply winning one dance game would be a sign of progress, but it would also put us into position to accomplish more.
And no, harrick didn't cheat his arse off.
And no, we wouldn't necessarily have to settle for a mid major coach if we aimed higher.
For us, simply winning one dance game would be a sign of progress, but it would also put us into position to accomplish more.
And no, harrick didn't cheat his arse off.
And no, we wouldn't necessarily have to settle for a mid major coach if we aimed higher.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:08 am to Crowknowsbest
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I'm not sure why winning a tournament game is some great barometer of success. 12 and 13 seeds win those regularly. Not sure that's the best measure. Getting to the second weekend is a much more substantial accomplishment.
wait a sec. I could be wrong but I thought reading through this thread you were one of the ones that were in favor of keeping fox, right? So the anti-foxers are saying "hey, we don't want final 4, let's just take the next baby step and win a tourney game"...and you're saying that's not even a good mesaure? That we should be making sweet 16s? Maybe it's still early but I'm not really following that line of thinking.
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Harrick cheated his arse off. Is UGA going to let the new coach do that?
Can you name anything Harrick did to gain a competitive advantage on the court? Harrick gave his current players easy As in a PE class (kinda like how any other normal student in a PE class passes if they just show up on the first and last day of class) and paid some phone bills. It's not like he was handing out a couple grand to recruits to sway them here. But aside from that, no UGA shouldn't let a new coach cheat. The great thing is that it doesnt' require cheating to be able to do better than we currently are.
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If we make no bigger changes, this isn't going get any better without cheating again
The fox-supporters keep saying this and it's not rooted in any reality. People keep saying that we have zero hope of being a good program if mcgarity is still here, or stegeman is unchanged, or yadda yadda. Guys...none of us are talking about 20 years down the road. We're talking about 2-3 years. A better coach (and rest assured there are a multitude of better coaches than Fox) is the first step. To think that getting a better coach won't change anything is simply ignorant.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:10 am to Dawgsontop34
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program was also obviously in far worse shape when he left.
Thanks to our ridiculous overreaction, which is beside the point. We all know the new hire created a much better product on the floor, which is the point.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:19 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
wait a sec. I could be wrong but I thought reading through this thread you were one of the ones that were in favor of keeping fox, right? So the anti-foxers are saying "hey, we don't want final 4, let's just take the next baby step and win a tourney game"...and you're saying that's not even a good mesaure? That we should be making sweet 16s? Maybe it's still early but I'm not really following that line of thinking.
I'm not for or against Fox. I think he's average. I think most coaches are average. I think programs mostly win at about the level they commit to win at at the administrative level.
I think winning a tournament game here or there is somewhat random. Making the Sweet 16 is less random.
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Can you name anything Harrick did to gain a competitive advantage on the court?
No, but it seems like a reasonable assumption given his association with and history at UCLA (maybe the dirtiest major program out there) and the scandal at UGA. Maybe he wasn't, but I doubt it.
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The great thing is that it doesnt' require cheating to be able to do better than we currently are.
I basically disagree. Everyone is cheating. You aren't getting players consistently without cutting side deals with AAU coaches and shoe companies. That's true even at Duke and UNC.
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Guys...none of us are talking about 20 years down the road. We're talking about 2-3 years.
Our whole problem as an athletic program is and has been a lack of vision, just moving from one project to another without any sort of coherent master plan. I want a master plan.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 8:21 am
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:38 am to Crowknowsbest
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I think programs mostly win at about the level they commit to win at at the administrative level.
Disagree. Doesn't explain the improvements made under the coaches I have listed, and it's not like we don't offer a competitive salary or have improved our facilities, which aren't as bad as folks like you believe.
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Maybe he wasn't, but I doubt it.
Either way, none of the stuff we got nailed for directly impacted our success. A quality coach made the diff.
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Everyone is cheating.
So that means we are already cheating.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 8:39 am
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:44 am to djsdawg
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Disagree. Doesn't explain the improvements made under the coaches I have listed, and it's not like we don't offer a competitive salary or have improved our facilities, which aren't as bad as folks like you believe.
After all those improvements those coaches brought us, look where we are now.
I've been to college basketball games at about 20 different universities. Stegeman is pretty unimpressive.
quote:
So that means we are already cheating.
This is a guess on my part, but given how seriously the university took the Harrick deal, Fox is probably under pretty strict guidelines with regard to compliance.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 8:45 am
Posted on 3/21/17 at 8:53 am to Crowknowsbest
quote:
I think programs mostly win at about the level they commit to win at at the administrative level.
So doesn't keeping fox around for year 9, 10, whatever prove without a doubt that we have zero commitment to get better? You gotta start somewhere, and the logical step is getting a better coach, not tearing down buildings.
quote:
I think winning a tournament game here or there is somewhat random. Making the Sweet 16 is less random.
True but I mean we're not in position to be demanding sweet 16s right now. How can we expect to compete for sweet 16s if we currently can't even make it in the tourney or win 2 NIT games? Fox isn't going to take us to the sweet 16 that's pretty much guaranteed, there's no harm in seeing if someone else can.
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You aren't getting players consistently without cutting side deals with AAU coaches and shoe companies
I think that's a bit overstated. Is SC cutting backroom deals and paying under the table? No, they just have talented players and a really good coach. All these mid-majors that win their conference and slip into the tourney and upset a team or 2...they do it because they're extremely well coached. Of course there are shady things going on all over the place, but it's not a REQUIREMENT to put a competitive team on the floor. I mean hell we had 2 of the 5 first team all SEC players, and didn't do shite wiht them. That tells me we have a coaching problem.
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Our whole problem as an athletic program is and has been a lack of vision,
I'm with you, and the fact that we are keeping fox (presumably) just supports that.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 9:02 am to WG_Dawg
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So doesn't keeping fox around for year 9, 10, whatever prove without a doubt that we have zero commitment to get better?
Yes, but I don't think hiring a coach from MTSU or something shows any sort of commitment either.
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True but I mean we're not in position to be demanding sweet 16s right now.
That's definitely true. I want to get there. IMO, we can't demand that of any coach right now. UGA hasn't shown the commitment that would make that demand reasonable.
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Is SC cutting backroom deals and paying under the table?
Probably. They signed a McD's AA a couple years ago, so that's one. Martin is a pretty connected dude. He recruited nationally to Kansas State.
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I mean hell we had 2 of the 5 first team all SEC players, and didn't do shite wiht them.
Frazier and Maten are outliers as under-recruited players. The rest of UGA's team drags them down because they aren't outliers.
quote:
I'm with you, and the fact that we are keeping fox (presumably) just supports that.
Firing a coach isn't visionary.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 9:20 am
Posted on 3/21/17 at 11:26 am to Crowknowsbest
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Firing a coach isn't visionary.
That may be true, but sometimes it is screamingly obvious as is the case with Fox.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 12:25 pm to Crowknowsbest
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Firing a coach isn't visionary.
It would at the absolute very least show that we are at least kinda sorta somewhat interested in having a team compete for postseason success. 8 years is plenty long enough to know what you're working with, and our guy hasn't got it done. Keeping him around is the exact opposite of visionary.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 12:32 pm to WG_Dawg
Georgia Way on display in this thread. The truth is, several programs have had bigger scandals than Harrick and have rebounded in 2-3 years.
I think we have a systemic problem in the Athletic Department. Kirby may be changing that for football.
We need to hire a highly experienced, lawyer, that has been a proven successful AD. With no connection to UGA in the past, none, zip, zero, nadda...
We need to break the Georgia Way once and for all as it is a Legacy that keeps holding us back in major sports.
I think we have a systemic problem in the Athletic Department. Kirby may be changing that for football.
We need to hire a highly experienced, lawyer, that has been a proven successful AD. With no connection to UGA in the past, none, zip, zero, nadda...
We need to break the Georgia Way once and for all as it is a Legacy that keeps holding us back in major sports.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:02 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
It would at the absolute very least show that we are at least kinda sorta somewhat interested in having a team compete for postseason success. 8 years is plenty long enough to know what you're working with, and our guy hasn't got it done. Keeping him around is the exact opposite of visionary.
See, I don't think it would even register, but maybe I'm wrong. Unless UGA invests more in the program, I don't think they'll hire anyone that moves the needle in that regard. The university needs more to be at stake.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:02 pm to lewis and herschel
quote:
We need to hire a highly experienced, lawyer, that has been a proven successful AD. With no connection to UGA in the past, none, zip, zero, nadda...
Agree 100% with this idea. Doesn't have to be a lawyer necessarily, but someone unconnected with the program.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 1:03 pm
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:07 pm to Crowknowsbest
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I don't think it would even register,
In what way? It wouldn't register if we went 10-20 of course, but what if we actually made the tourney? What if we won more than 1 NIT game? What if we put a fun product on the court that got fans pumped? Or not shoot ourselves in the dick with mind numbing losses to inferior teams? I believe all that would register.
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Unless UGA invests more in the program, I don't think they'll hire anyone that moves the needle
Fox makes $1.7M. If we offered someone north of $2M I think that'd be showing at least a little more investment.
We can go around in circles for days about the administration, money, fan support, facilities, master plans, and anything else we can dream of. But the bottom line is the head coach we have has been here 8 years with 0 tourney wins. And I flat out refuse to believe that that is the best we can do.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:18 pm to WG_Dawg
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In what way? It wouldn't register if we went 10-20 of course, but what if we actually made the tourney? What if we won more than 1 NIT game? What if we put a fun product on the court that got fans pumped? Or not shoot ourselves in the dick with mind numbing losses to inferior teams? I believe all that would register.
I don't think the simple act of firing a coach and hiring a new one would show commitment to winning to anybody outside the UGA fan base, mostly because that's not a substantial commitment in the big picture. Coaches are relatively cheap.
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Fox makes $1.7M. If we offered someone north of $2M I think that'd be showing at least a little more investment.
$300k is in fact little more investment. This is a revenue sport that our regional peers take a lot more seriously than UGA currently does.
quote:
We can go around in circles for days about the administration, money, fan support, facilities, master plans, and anything else we can dream of. But the bottom line is the head coach we have has been here 8 years with 0 tourney wins. And I flat out refuse to believe that that is the best we can do.
I want to do better than what you're talking about. Winning at a high level in basketball is an attainable goal for UGA, but it does require stepping out of the University's comfort zone. The head coach is peanuts. The program is a lot bigger than him.
This post was edited on 3/21/17 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:23 pm to Crowknowsbest
quote:
I want to do better than what you're talking about
Me too. I'm sure every follower of the program wants to make the final 4 every year. But that's not going to happen beginning next year. We aren't going to have some overnight, sudden wakeup where we're all of a sudden a national power. You've got to take it one step at a time and the first step, and by far the easiest and most convenient to achieve, is getting a better coach. You talk about our administrative support...why in the hell would the admin start pumping a frick ton of money into a program that can't even win 2 NIT games? If we get a coach that actually wins a little I imagine the admin and fan support will follow.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 1:44 pm to WG_Dawg
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We aren't going to have some overnight, sudden wakeup where we're all of a sudden a national power.
No shite
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You've got to take it one step at a time and the first step, and by far the easiest and most convenient to achieve, is getting a better coach. You talk about our administrative support...why in the hell would the admin start pumping a frick ton of money into a program that can't even win 2 NIT games?
I can name one similarly mediocre program that took this strategy and watched it work. That one is Florida, who lucked into Billy Donovan.
Programs that threw money at the problem and got a lot better: Texas, Oregon, Ohio State, Virginia, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, etc.
Posted on 3/21/17 at 2:14 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
Fox makes $1.7M. If we offered someone north of $2M I think that'd be showing at least a little more investment.
Fox already makes 2M per his last extension. Which is why I think it's so insane that he's "got our full support" per ADGM.
Take a look at this table of coaches from the 2016 tournament (haven't found a 2017 version so certainly a little dated) to see who else makes within spitting distance of 2M either direction:
sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/coach/
I'm still shocked that Few doesn't make more at Gonzaga... 1.37M... I read the article where he said he doesn't have any interest in going anywhere else.... but frick it... Offer him nearly 3M and see if he could turn it down... Offer big incentives for tournament wins... Because ultimately those tournament wins would go a long way to getting the fan support they need to possibly invest in a new arena. (See: previous post somewhere on this damn board about partnering with Classic Center dammit)
I mean... one of his major concerns is the headaches and clauses that come with some of the elite programs, but if he even equated to 75% of what he's done at Gonzaga at UGA, he'd be a legend here. And the fly fishing in Georgia is not bad... it's not Pacific Northwest good, but it's not bad. He'd even get to remain a Bulldog... just gotta spell it a little differently.
I realize Few might be a pipe dream, but the idea that Mark Fox is not held to any particular standard of success by our AD but is paid at the level of guys who are regularly making the tournament and winning there is baffling. He did what was needed, but his time has just come...
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