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re: OT - Senate Report on Intelligence
Posted on 12/10/14 at 12:35 am to IT_Dawg
Posted on 12/10/14 at 12:35 am to IT_Dawg
According to the same study that boasts 133,000 civilian deaths, they all give figures of annual civilian deaths. According to those reports, a large majority are killed by insurgents, and over the last 3 years, it's been less than 4,300 per year (a high number and it does suck). However, SH averaged 120 killings PER DAY. Those reports show that over the last 3 years, 87% less people are dying annually than during the SH regime....
Also keep in mind that the same people that were in the regime and insurgents, are causing a majority of the deaths still today......American drones aren't killing thousands of innocent civilians each year in Iraq......
Also keep in mind that the same people that were in the regime and insurgents, are causing a majority of the deaths still today......American drones aren't killing thousands of innocent civilians each year in Iraq......
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Posted on 12/10/14 at 12:51 am to IT_Dawg
quote:Yet it took us that long to do something about him, and it Doesn't negate the fact that that's a shite ton of people, and that 133,000 is really a low ball estimate with a lot of people reporting that it is really closer to 500,000 and we were there to help them supposedly.
Just like your 133,000......it's been estimated that SH killed more than 1,000,000 civilians in the 23 years he was in power......
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quote:Kind of hard for them to go to school when these stats exist: Approximately 1.5 million people remain either internally displaced or have fled the country; in other words, 1 in 20 Iraqis are still displaced from their homes. Not to mention that 7 million out of 30 million are living under the poverty line, in 2000 only 17 percent lived in slum conditions, now that number is 50 percent, there's approximately 4.5 million orphans, 600,000 of whom are living on the streets. Hard to say with any confidence at all that we improved the conditions over there.
How many civilians in Iraq now have an opportunity to go to school or get a job that they would never have had under SH?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 12:53 am to IT_Dawg
Still a lot of those people being killed by insurgents were insurgents who were created by our meddling in Iraq.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 12:56 am to IT_Dawg
I completely agree with you that SH was a piece of shite who did a lot more damage to the country in his tenure than we did in ours, no denying that, just simply stating that our hands aren't clean either.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 6:49 am to JacketFan77
quote:
JacketFan77 OT - Senate Report on Intelligence Here's the thing, many of them WERE NOT deserving and were used as tools by these psycho contractors and the CIA to justify EIT. As to your first question, if it was going on during WWII, it wasn't right then, either.
It has always gone on and it has always been wrong. There is nothing more stale than a soldiers information after about 2 days. Even if they arent lying the information gained is most likely old news except in the rarest of occasions.
The truly troubling aspect though is that we can't expect our enemies to be any better than we are....so we have no right to be outraged when our soldiers are interrogated in similar fashion...and we have no right to be outraged when our enemies do not stop at whatever level we claim we will.
This is not a right/left issue...it will turn into one, but it isn't. Both sides will do this...this is something that the American people should be outraged about and should insist that those responsible for making the decision to allow these tactics be at least exposed....it will be difficult for them to be prosecuted but their lives should be impacted at least as much as a kid who decides to deal drugs and is busted.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 6:50 am to Whiznot
quote:
Posted by Message Whiznot OT - Senate Report on Intelligence The torture doesn't make all that much difference. Sure, it's more personal but it is no worse than impersonal bombing and wholesale annihilation all over the globe.
While your sentiment is well founded it is a little harder to hide wholesale bombing than it is torture carried out under the cover of darkness and secrecy...
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:03 am to germandawg
quote:
The truly troubling aspect though is that we can't expect our enemies to be any better than we are....so we have no right to be outraged when our soldiers are interrogated in similar fashion...and we have no right to be outraged when our enemies do not stop at whatever level we claim we will.
This is not a right/left issue...it will turn into one, but it isn't. Both sides will do this...this is something that the American people should be outraged about and should insist that those responsible for making the decision to allow these tactics be at least exposed....it will be difficult for them to be prosecuted but their lives should be impacted at least as much as a kid who decides to deal drugs and is busted.
The thing is, our enemies don't play by conventions. Now, our enemies are the likes of ISIS and Al Quieda (spelling) who play by no rules - think the beheading of children that recently happened.
Is this form of interrogation wise or whatever? No, but if it helps save American lives then I am all for it. Some of those bastards should be flayed alive.
But, there is a reason this stuff was released and it WAS politically motivated. Of course, the Repubs are going to disagree because it would be political suicide no to... however, the main group were dems (were they not?) and one can be sure that there is a reason...
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:11 am to Prettyboy Floyd
quote:
I know for a fact the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein. That's really all that needs to be said. You can cry like a pussy all you want. It is what it is.
How in the frick is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein???? Have you seen a newspaper or a news broadcast in the last 8 years? The Middle East is more unstable....we are not as safe today as we were in 2001. We now have daily stories of teens in the US being recruited by ISIS or whatever the frick they call themselves today. How long before our fricking around in the Middle East leads to their being able to attacks us daily here at home???
There is a reason we supported Saddam Hussein for so many years...because he was a westerner at heart and only about money and power. We removed that and replaced it with an idea....and that is a bad idea. We fricked around and kicked a hornets nest after 9/11 and are supposed to believe we are safer today??? Only a complete idiot could possibly jump to the conclusion that the world was worse off with one known snake than it is with hundreds of unknown ones.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:13 am to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
You fricking people, you have no idea how to defend a nation. You just weakened a country today Obama, that’s all you did. You put people’s lives in danger. Sweet dreams son.
I got no problem with it.
People want to defend this country until you tell them how it's done and they can't handle it.
Everytime I see a clip of those poor individuals jumping out of the trade tower windows I want to nuke Mecca.
frick 'em.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:14 am to bulldawger
Not my qoute, but I have no problem with it. But what we have are a bunch of bleeding heart liberals who think groups like ISIS play by any sort of rules. There is only ONE rule they understand...
This post was edited on 12/10/14 at 7:16 am
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:15 am to bulldawger
I don't think a person can hold both a secret and a top secret clearance simultaneously....
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:19 am to germandawg
Not that I know of...
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:20 am to germandawg
quote:
Only a complete idiot could possibly jump to the conclusion that the world was worse off with one known snake than it is with hundreds of unknown ones
Think Syria and our meddling in that one, too...
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:39 am to Spaceman Spiff
No one on here is saying that or expecting that. What we expect is that we, the United States of America, won't stoop to those levels. We are supposed to be the example to the world. We can't say, "do as we say, not as we do." That doesn't work.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 7:49 am to germandawg
quote:
How in the frick is the world a better place without Saddam Hussein????
You can't be this stupid....or can you?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 8:13 am to germandawg
A friend of mine summed it up best:
Not holding my breath, either.
quote:
The report does mention an EO that BO signed that said more or less "no more detention sites", FWIW. The report has a very "blame Bush" and "BO saved the day" tone to it. Is it true? I'm like you, don't care.
The crux of the issue here is that the CIA
- Tortured people, in my name
- Ineffectively (and that's being polite)
- Strained and degraded intelligence relations
- Wasted a ton of money
- Outright lied to leadership about a million times
The CIA has to be brought to heel, and the people who are responsible for this ineptitude, incompetence, and moral / ethical failure have to be punished.
I'm not holding my breath, however.
Not holding my breath, either.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 8:48 am to K9
quote:
Maybe there was and our presence turned more people to that sort of thinking and that is what sealed the fate for those Iraqi Christians. But, like I said, I don't know much at all about that situation.
The stupidity of the decision to try and bring "democracy" to Iraq and the clusterfrick zillion-dollar attempt at occupation did what opponents of Christianity in that region were unable to do for thousands of years......
It brought the complete annihilation of Christianity there. Tens of thousands of Christians have been slaughtered. Hundreds of thousands more of them have been driven from their land and homes.
Holocaust: (noun) - Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale.
K9, There was a Christian holocaust that occurred right under our noses....with barely a peep of media coverage. Why?
A: Because this holocaust is a direct result of the limitless stupidity of the "christians" in DC.
And this is only one of hundreds of unintended consequences that should make any thinking man sick to his stomach.........
What are most people doing instead though?.....They're, actually arguing over whether its okay for american stormtroopers to torture people!
Remind me again please............Who are "the good guys"?
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:04 am to Jefferson Dawg
quote:
Remind me again please............Who are "the good guys"?
Answer: There are none. Live your own life as virtuous as possible, and hope it rubs off on people around you.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:21 am to bulldawger
quote:Stop using pathos as the basis of your decisions please.
Everytime I see a clip of those poor individuals jumping out of the trade tower windows I want to nuke Mecca.
Posted on 12/10/14 at 9:22 am to germandawg
quote:
I don't think a person can hold both a secret and a top secret clearance simultaneously....
All clearances are based on need to know. Therefore one might be cleared to TS or above for some things, but only for Secret, below Secret (Confidential, NOFORN, etc.), or no access for others.
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