re: Here Was a Man..............

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No doubt. I know just as many people as not who are both spiritual and curious. They see science as a way of getting to know their God more intimately, and have no fear of "Babelish" repercussions for doing so.

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Problem is. people do not give science the same scrutiny they give God. Ironic, huh? Science has been caught wanting much more than God has. Hoaxes and fraud abound in the evolutionary field as well as the pharmaceutical field of science. I saw in an article that said those two fields have had more fraudulent data come out than other in science.

Ok.....time to go for now. Again, this has been an interesting and enlightening conversation. I will try to check in again tomorrow if you guys care to keep going. I've learned from you, and I appreciate that. I always like to learn.

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I always like to learn.

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same here.

And I realize my above post probably seemed more like rambling than anything . There has been some interesting discussion in this thread. It is a really good topic as long as people can keep civil. I don't like discussing it with people that fall into the "you're gonna burn in hell" or the "there's 100% no possible way there could be a god" (which ignores the fact that science can only really prove existence and not non-existence of something) because if you can't see someone else's side of the debate, you really can't learn anything.

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While true, science has changed many times over the years. And, it will continue to change. What science proclaims as truth, is proven incorrect by science itself at a later time. Now, I realize the old argument that scince rarely proclaims truth...and it deals in theory...and it continually allows it self to evolve and change as new proof comes to light..

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Absolutely. If you notice, I proclaimed earlier in this thread to feel just as strongly about dogmatic atheists as I do dogmatic theists. There is but one Truth, and to dogmatically claim that you have obtained it without irrefutable proof is damaging to those who are seeking the Truth. Many do this with science, and this is damaging for science itself.

The Big Bang theory is just that: a theory. It may be the best theory that we have, given our current understanding of physics, but the fact remains. I don't believe in dogmatically teaching any theory as the Truth, although there is nothing wrong with teaching ANY theory with caveats to the limitations contained within provided. This goes for religion as well as science.

I keep returning to my Pentecostal upbringing...I was browbeat with religion everyday of my life, until I left home. I still am to a certain extent, but now have control over how I can express my dissatisfaction with such absolutism. I don't hate religion...I strongly dislike the way it is weilded by governments and others that seek to control the thoughts and lives of others. It simultaneously collectivizes and controls the masses like no other institution in history, all with appeals to emotion and higher authority. It crushes the individual.

When you science has been corrupted, I would not disagree. But science in practice isn't immune to corruption...but we call corrupt science "pseudoscience". Governments and people will always use whatever tool in their toolbox to force their will upon others. This is why I believe the most important gift that I can impart to my daughter is the gift of critical thought...to think for herself....to question authority....there is no authority higher than you over yourself.

That's it. Happy Jeebus Eve. I'm about to sit down with the family to a feast. Just waiting for them to thank Jeebus for the bountiful harvest before I go in...

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"It's just wrong, when you remove baby Jesus two days before Christmas and put Satan in his place — that just can't happen. I couldn't allow it to happen," said Hemeryck, who said she was wearing a shirt that said "Catholic Warrior" when she arrived at the Capitol. "I was there at the right time and the right moment and I needed to take a stand against Satan."

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Seems relevant to some of my commentary, so I'll leave this here...

LINK

Yea I think both groups are dumb in that case. I get annoyed when people on either side go out of their way just to poke the other, that's just childish. People should have better things to do with their time.

And the lady was in the wrong too by destroying property that isn't hers. Sometimes people just needs to realize someone else not believing the same thing as you really doesn't matter in the long run and has no effect on you.

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Sometimes people just needs to realize someone else not believing the same thing as you really doesn't matter in the long run and has no effect on you.

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I just wish that people would learn that IF there is to be government, you don't want the government endorsing/implementing things of these nature. Today, it could be your ideal...tomorrow, another. Be wary of what you allow the collective to do in your name...

Yea, they'll just endorse whichever ideal will get them the most votes. The government shouldn't have anything to do with stuff like this unless it relates to someone infringing on the basic rights of another (and contrary to popular belief, we don't have the right to be protected from being offended).

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I've seen some billboards and old buildings spay painted with John 3:16 and "Love" and other things like that before.

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Church gangs, man. Bad seeds. Drive-by baptisms everywhere. The horror...the horror...

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however, like any experiment or hypothesis, it has its faults as well.

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SOME scientists do not agree....but I may have used too strong of a word when I said debunked. I should have worded it to say that there is a sizable number of scientists that disagree. Within the evolutionary community there are many theories as to how it actually takes place.

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One thing that has always confused me regarding religion and evolution (and I'm not directing this at you), is when people say evolution can't exist because god made everything. If you believe that god created everything, wouldn't it be plausible to believe that he set in place the mechanisms for something like that to occur?

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I believe that God created everything. How He idd this or at the pace He did it is unimportant to me. The Bible DOES say that He spoke....well....let's just say I do not embrace evolution, nor do I discount it. In the greater scheme of things I find it infinitely unimportant.
I ALWAYS begin to question when I see fraud in a certain area. And evolutionary scientists have tried to convince us of it's validity by using false evidence. Now....understand..that I realize that there have been disagreements and false claims in the Christian community as well. THAT has caused me to look deeper into those claims as well. However, what I find interesting is that people will find one thing wrong with Christianity and totally reject it while continuing to embrace science with it's many faults. Before anyone misunderstands me...I LOVE science. Without it where would we be? No television, medicines, automobiles etc....however there is much corruption (Especially today) in many findings by science yet so many are willing to give it a pass.

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I definitely fall into the agnostic aspect of the spectrum,

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I understand where people come from that idnentify as agnostic. It isn't easy to believe.....AND Christianity, at its core is faith based. It is not tangible.

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There are definitely cases where this is true. Especially in pharmaceuticals, as you said. Not to the point where data is forged, but rather where it is cherry picked and people are led to believe certain things with statistics. Statistics can be used to make whatever point you want to make unfortunately.

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True...but I can go farther than this. Medicines are "created" and used while under patent. Once the patent runs out and generics come on the market, lowering the price...the pharmaceutical companies will change one, very minor ingredient that does not change the effectiveness of the medicine and market it as new and improved, when in fact, it does absolutely nothing new that the original medicine did not do. But,because of the change in formula, they can market it as new and patent it charging higher prices. They then give kickbacks and free samples to reps that push this "new" miracle drug. We won't even go into the drug trials that have been run on unsuspecting people years ago.