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re: NFL GM wonders why NFL teams aren't designing offenses to help spread QBs
Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:10 pm to cardboardboxer
Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:10 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
You can't predict injuries, which is why I didn't get your point at first.
RG3 was had the NFL a buzz over the read option.
The NFL is a monkey see monkey do league, look the Wildcat and how one team had success with it, then every team was running it a week later.
How many are still using it?
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Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:19 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
ot the full concept, but the idea of getting the ball to playmakers in open space rather than just pound the middle to death has changed the game. Tom Brady to Wes Welker was a Xerox of everything a Mike Leach Texas Tech program did well.
Yeah but this was already being used in the NFL well before anybody knew who Mike Leach was. See the 1990s Buffalo Bills. Don Beebe was Wes Welker well before Wes Welker made it on Texas Tech's campus.
This post was edited on 9/9/15 at 10:21 pm
Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:25 pm to BigBrod81
Sure thing. Leach didn't invent any of it.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:36 pm to cardboardboxer
I'm not saying he didn't add his concepts but everything done scheme wise in football is recycled from a previous scheme. Where do you think the whole no huddle concept came from?
LINK
quote:
Ever since new Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett moved from CNY to WNY, he’s continually hinted that the offense he builds with Head Coach Doug Marrone will include some “K-Gun” elements like they had at Syracuse. Any mention of the term “K-Gun” is a sure-fire way to elicit warm memories of the glory years for Bills fans that are old enough to have witnessed it. However, if you ask most of those fans what that offense actually entails, you usually won’t get much more than the fact that it was generally an up-tempo, no huddle offense. Maybe they’ll tell you it was a shotgun formation named for Jim Kelly (if they’re ignorant) or Keith McKellar (if they’re not).
The term “no huddle” doesn’t really do much to differentiate, as many teams, such as New England, Green Bay, and (presumably) Philadelphia frequently operate without a huddle. And at this point, every NFL offense, even Andy Reid’s, runs plays out of the shotgun.
quote:
Run and Shoot Origins
To answer, we’ll start with a bit of history. The K-Gun has its origins in Houston, where the offense’s predecessor, the Run and Shoot, was popularized at the NFL level by the Oilers. The Falcons, Lions, and Seahawks were also purveyors of the Shoot, but the most successful form was “run” by the Warren Moon lead Oilers, who were able to make the playoffs 7 straight seasons and finish top 10 in offense each year with the vertical, pass first offense.
However, the Oilers weren’t the first Houston pro football team to tear apart up a league with the shoot. That honor belonged to the USFL’s Houston Gamblers, led by none other than the Bills #1 draft choice a few years earlier, James Edward Kelly. Kelly and the “Mouseketeers,” as his receivers were dubbed, worked with Gamblers offensive coordinator and Run and Shoot pioneer, Mouse Davis, to throw for 5219 pass yards and 44 TDs in 1984. It wasn’t the NFL, but Kelly took home USFL MVP honors that year, so if nothing else Kelly knew how to be the Shoot’s “gunslinger,” if you will.
quote:
These adapted basic ideas of the offense were elegant in their simplicity. In essence, the offense’s core elements were to read the coverage, stretch the field vertically, and create numerical mismatches (for instance, 4 receivers attacking downfield against 3 defensive backs). By reading the coverage, receivers had the prerogative and imperative to change their route on the fly based on what the defensive back was doing. Further, since where the receiver ran change according to the coverage scheme, there was theoretically no coverage a defense could run that the Shoot wouldn’t have an answer for.
LINK
Posted on 9/9/15 at 10:47 pm to BigBrod81
Lavell Edwards was probably the God Father of the Air Raid offense.Mike Leach and Hal Mumme both copied and refined it.
Leach gets WAY too much credit for his offensive "innovations"
Leach gets WAY too much credit for his offensive "innovations"
Posted on 9/9/15 at 11:06 pm to RD Dawg
Leach was the one began to simplify the system for his players. He was the one who started taking away the responsibility of the QB & receivers to actual have to read the defense presnap & make adjustments accordingly. While it cut down on mental errors, it also took away vital elements that players need to have knowledge of to be successful at the next level.
Posted on 9/9/15 at 11:19 pm to BigBrod81
You can back up even more from the K-Gun to the Bengals "Sugar Huddle" from a few years before that. The Bengals started using a basketball-style huddle during timeouts under Head Coach Sam Wyche. They would have 15 or so guys in the huddle then sprint onto the field and snap the ball before the correct defensive personnel could be sent out. Of course, the NFL changed the rules to prevent the cheap tactic from continuing. The next evolution for the Bengals was how they would run off WRs after a deep route wherever they were when a play ended while running on a replacement at the LOS. Of course, defenses didn't want to sub off their DBs to match, but they didn't have much choice with their DBs gasping for breath. Obviously, that created mismatches. The NFL again stamped down on that tactic. The "final" (I say final only because it's the last major innovation) incarnation was the "Sugar Huddle" where they would huddle very quickly and close to the line, so they could break the huddle and immediately run a play before the defense could see their formation and adjust.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 12:03 am to cardboardboxer
quote:
To be fair to RG3, who I hate, he looked good before his injury.
To also be fair to RG3-- he might have essentially sacrificed his career to try and win the Skins a playoff game and then rushed back too soon. (Given how the fanbase turned on him it'd be hilarious to see a bounceback for another NFC East team-- say RG3 gets an amazing rejuvenation as Chip Kelly's 2016 through 2019 QB or something).
Posted on 9/10/15 at 12:04 am to DaleDenton
quote:
I'm sure back in the 70s people were asking why the NFL teams didn't run the wishbone...
Or that gimmicky "West Coast" crap Bill Walsh was running at Stanford-- like that would ever have worked in the NFL
Posted on 9/10/15 at 12:05 am to DaleDenton
quote:
he looked good before his injury.
This was my point, duel threat QBs don't last in the NFL, outside of few exceptions (Vick).
The air raid type spreads haven't yielded QBs who have been successful (Brennan).
The athletes and schemes on the defensive side of the ball are too good for predetermined plays in the passing game, risk of injury is too high for the read/option.
The fact the Spread QBs don't know how to read a defense is the problem, not the OCs refusal to tailor the offense to them (they can't because predetermined pass plays won't work).
Ehhh..... the very best NFL teams largely shifted to shotgun based passing attacks in the mid to late 00s, and Kelly seems to be putting up good offensive numbers in Philly.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 1:21 am to montanagator
Sure NFL defensive coordinators have a lot more time that they do in college to put together a plan and THEY have much better personnel, but the same is true on offense in case you all have forgotten.
If the point made throughout this string was true then you would think that no offensive system could work in the NFL.The so called pro set should have been totally shut down years ago .
I think NFL coordinators don't run diverse offenses because most of them come from an NFL background and they run what they know. For instance when Tebow played in Denver they had to call some college teams to set up a system for him because they didn't know how.
If you committed to a system and drafted people to run it, if they were good enough you could run the Notre Dame Box, but three yards and a cloud of rubber particles does not sell tickets.
Running what Georgia Tech does WOULD work, having extra blockers because there are two guys you don't have to block will work at any level, but the Andrew Lucks Peyton Mannings etc of the world can't do it. It wouldn't sell tickets. The prima donnas on defense in the league would whine about the cut blocking and the Union would step in.
If the point made throughout this string was true then you would think that no offensive system could work in the NFL.The so called pro set should have been totally shut down years ago .
I think NFL coordinators don't run diverse offenses because most of them come from an NFL background and they run what they know. For instance when Tebow played in Denver they had to call some college teams to set up a system for him because they didn't know how.
If you committed to a system and drafted people to run it, if they were good enough you could run the Notre Dame Box, but three yards and a cloud of rubber particles does not sell tickets.
Running what Georgia Tech does WOULD work, having extra blockers because there are two guys you don't have to block will work at any level, but the Andrew Lucks Peyton Mannings etc of the world can't do it. It wouldn't sell tickets. The prima donnas on defense in the league would whine about the cut blocking and the Union would step in.
This post was edited on 9/10/15 at 1:31 am
Posted on 9/10/15 at 1:34 am to antibarner
quote:
If you committed to a system and drafted people to run it, if they were good enough you could run the Notre Dame Box, but three yards and a cloud of rubber particles does not sell tickets.
Running that Georgia Tech does WOULD work, because having extra blockers because there are two guys you don't have to block will work at any level, but the Andrew Lucks Peyton Mannings etc of the world can't do it. It wouldn't sell tickets.
Within a limit, I agree. The GT example is a poor one, I think. The problem is that NFL QBs HAVE to be able to read defenses. You don't have to be Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, but you have to be serviceable by NFL standards. Most guys who run a GT-style offense in college are not at that level.
I'm not sure the triple option would work in the NFL of today. The extra prep time they have would allow the defense to scheme correctly. Georgia Tech makes it work because even in college very few teams run that offense, so teams are not scheming to face it every week. In the NFL, the extra prep time would allow teams to ensure players know their assignments, and the increased quality of player (physically and mentally) would allow the defense to execute.
Option and spread offenses essentially serve to put the defense in 1-on-1 situations all over the field since man-to-man is the simplest way to defend those concepts. NFL DCs would be able to implement zone schemes capable of neutralizing those offenses on a scale similar to other offenses.
The obvious other factor is on the premium cost of a starting QB and other positions. I'm not sure you would be able to construct a roster with the necessary depth to run that offense and pay for a competent defense.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 5:57 am to montanagator
quote:
Or that gimmicky "West Coast" crap Bill Walsh was running at Stanford-- like that would ever have worked in the NFL
Walsh came up with the "west coast" offense while with the Cincinnati Bengals under Paul Brown.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 5:58 am to DoreonthePlains
Once again you miss the point. The offensive people have more time too to scheme and create wrinkles and mismatches. The D Coordinators have time to scheme against every offense they face but they cannot shut them down all the time.
The Wildcat has had some decent success and running the Wishbone or Paul Johnson's triple option packages would work too. I daresay an option QB or even two would be a lot cheaper than an Andrew Luck or a Peyton Manning, and good RB's are not all that expensive either.
Players today are bigger stronger and faster than ever, but IMO they are not more disciplined and maybe not as much as in the past. It is all about look at me and the big play and getting on the highlights.
People like that would get frustrated just carrying a lunchbucket play after play and not being able to stand out, while having to get their assignments right play after play. And as the game wore on they would blow said assignments and get gashed.
The Wildcat has had some decent success and running the Wishbone or Paul Johnson's triple option packages would work too. I daresay an option QB or even two would be a lot cheaper than an Andrew Luck or a Peyton Manning, and good RB's are not all that expensive either.
Players today are bigger stronger and faster than ever, but IMO they are not more disciplined and maybe not as much as in the past. It is all about look at me and the big play and getting on the highlights.
People like that would get frustrated just carrying a lunchbucket play after play and not being able to stand out, while having to get their assignments right play after play. And as the game wore on they would blow said assignments and get gashed.
This post was edited on 9/10/15 at 6:04 am
Posted on 9/10/15 at 6:01 am to antibarner
quote:
I think NFL coordinators don't run diverse offenses because most of them come from an NFL background
@ you if you think college spread offenses are more diverse or more complex than a NFL offense.Posted on 9/10/15 at 6:04 am to BigBrod81
They aren't. But there are a lot of similarities in what the majority of them (NFL) do.
This post was edited on 9/10/15 at 6:07 am
Posted on 9/10/15 at 6:12 am to antibarner
You could easily create a lot of headaches for NFL D coordinators...line up in a full house set and with a slight shift you have 4 wides with LB's covering slot receivers. That is a simple way to create a mismatch and if they have DB's out there you run it down their throats.
Still a chess game no matter the formation.
Still a chess game no matter the formation.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 6:37 am to BigBrod81
quote:
BigBrod81
quote:
This is true. The formations & route combinations come from the run & shoot & the Buffalo Bills K Gun offense. The zone read, pistol & check with me concepts are fairly new.
Actually you're completely incorrect. Mumme and Leach went out to BYU and lifted their passing game concepts-route positions, route stems, everything down to the concepts themselves-from Lavell Edwards. Edwards brought most of the conceptual elements of BYU's passing game from a man named Sid Gillman.
Gillman is considered the father of the modern passing game. He and Paul Brown (bonus points if you can figure out which franchise Brown is associated with) were responsible for the game itself rising from the primordial, barbaric ooze and transforming into the organized chaos we rabidly enjoy today.
So you're correct in that it is true that the spread isn't something new. Conceptually the Cleveland Browns were trying to do this stuff in the 50's. But Gilman perfected this offense from a passing game standpoint while head coach of the Chargers in the decade between 1960 and 1970.
The line splits were added in by Leach and Mumme, and the shotgun to go along with the removal of a balanced run game. But this ain't from the 90's in buffalo.
This post was edited on 9/10/15 at 6:39 am
Posted on 9/10/15 at 7:30 am to antibarner
quote:
Running what Ga Tech does WOULD work
No it wouldn't.Too much speed with defenders in the NFL and a QB simply cannot take that pounding over the course of 16 weeks.
quote:
But 3 yards and a cloud of rubber particles does not sell tickets
Wiñning sells tickets period.
Posted on 9/10/15 at 7:34 am to Bench McElroy
The Redskins tried that recently. They got a qb basically killed in two seasons and won bothing. Gimmicks in the NFL don't work. I college a qb that runs a 4.7 is fast. In the NFL d lineman approach that time. Entirely different ballgame.
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