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re: Just how good is Gary Pinkel, really?
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:33 am to NeverToYield
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:33 am to NeverToYield
His overall body of work is somewhat stained because he took a terrible team and slowly made them competitive. Those early years had a lot of losses that made his overall W-L record look mediocre. Since then, we had only one stinker year.
He is not an elite coach because he hasn't won a conference championship. Oklahoma 2X and now Auburn and Alabama have kept us from the hardware.
Bottom line is that I wouldn't want anyone else to be our coach.
He is not an elite coach because he hasn't won a conference championship. Oklahoma 2X and now Auburn and Alabama have kept us from the hardware.
Bottom line is that I wouldn't want anyone else to be our coach.
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Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:36 am to Rebel Land Shark
Solid for Missouri and that program.
If they run him off, who would they realistically get that is better.
Pinkel was probably close to being fired but the last two years have allowed him to retire when he wants.
If they run him off, who would they realistically get that is better.
Pinkel was probably close to being fired but the last two years have allowed him to retire when he wants.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:36 am to JesusQuintana
quote:
He's the right kind of coach for the.right kind of program
I agree with this. He is perfect for missouri. Fits them well.
quote:
I'd say 8.5/10
See I dont' know about that. You have to assume that there is an extreeeeeeeemely small group of 10/10s, in fact it's probably just 2; saban and meyer. Below them in the 9 category you have your borderline elite guys elsewhere like maybe patterson, harbaugh, etc. I'm not sure if pinkel is right there below those guys. Unlike OP, I would give him better than 6.5. I think he's solidly in the 7s somewhere.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:38 am to Mizzou Mule
quote:
Someday he'll have a statue.
Unless someone has a photo of a relative holding a Confederate Flag
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:41 am to Wtodd
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Someday he'll have a statue.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:42 am to Wtodd
In the quest to go from good to great, you need the last few inches
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:44 am to WG_Dawg
It's just so difficult to compare coaches. This isn't the NFL and CFB is far from a level playing field. For example, it's much easier to win at a place like Georgia than it is at Mizzou. We are located in the Mid West, our in state talent pool and surrounding areas are mediocre at best. Our facilities are mediocre at best (though improving) and we have a mediocre history with a long lull of shite for a couple decades before he got here. He's consistently had us better than we really should be. There aren't alot of coaches who can do that.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:45 am to NeverToYield
If he had Miles' staff (Raymond, Wilson, Grimes, BDP, Orgeron, Ball?), he'd be one of the most successful coaches in the country.
Recruiting is half the game though, and it's tough to really evaluate him as Mizzou just doesn't offer what an LSU, Alabama or Florida can offer to recruits.
He's well above average. I'd definitely put him top-5 in the SEC (Saban, Miles, Richt, Spurrier), about even with Malzahn (although Malzahn can move up substantially if he gets another SECCG appearance).
Recruiting is half the game though, and it's tough to really evaluate him as Mizzou just doesn't offer what an LSU, Alabama or Florida can offer to recruits.
He's well above average. I'd definitely put him top-5 in the SEC (Saban, Miles, Richt, Spurrier), about even with Malzahn (although Malzahn can move up substantially if he gets another SECCG appearance).
Posted on 7/2/15 at 10:48 am to NeverToYield
Good summation of the numbers, they appear correct, and your rating seems pretty fair. There is a reason you will hear Pinkel refer to the Bowl Wins and Division titles as "championships" because without them he has none in a power conference.
Pinkel is known for his "solid effort" style and head down do the work attitude, he will often attribute his coaching style to being a "Don James disciple", his former mentor and boss. Among his coachisms are the oft self quoted "We do what we do" and "We have a system", he believes in his system to the point that he thinks it "speaks for itself" which as pointed out has been somewhat of a double edged sword.
Part of the "we do what we do/we have a system" mantra is often attributed to the lack of "recruiting splash" that MU makes under Pinkel. Many fans will incorrectly claim "we don't recruit stars" and "our system is better than the recruiter services" which is of course nonsense, as MU does recruit stars(see DGB), we just don't get that many, but we love to get them(see Lock, TBJ this class) and would love to have more of them, (assuming we would actually like to win a championship). Because we have a few 3 or even 2 star recruits that succeed, fans will also claim this is somehow unique to Mizzou, which is also of course silly, and then forget about the contribution of the star players like Richardson, Gabbert, Maclin, Ealy, Boehm, Franklin and so forth.
As part of his "system" Pinkel tends to automatically redshirt the incoming freshman assuming no immediate need of position or the clear ability to win first year playing time. Preferring to keep the kids learning in his system longer rather than try to produce immediate stars of them.
Pinkel likes player consistency and also detests coaching churn, but when he does need to make a staff move, he will nearly always promote from within if he can, this tendency has bitten him (see promotion of Dave Yost) but also paid dividends, (see success of D-line/Coach Kuligowski). For the most part his coaching tree is barren, you won't see any former Pinkel staff coaching at elite programs, possibly that will change, and Mizzou fans hope that will start with returning, rising Mizzou DC, Dave Odom a former MU position coach.
In the past, Pinkel has run a very "bland" version of the spread, implementing "ball control" into the package and trying to minimize big plays from the competitor. Nothing flashy in what MU does and nothing tricky though he has been known to put in a gimmick here and there. His gimmicks have backfired at times, eg. freezing his own kicker in an attempt to draw an offsides. Pinkel is no great X's and O's football mind, if he can't win with mistake free basics, then he isn't going to coach out a win over a better team.
Finally, although it will draw some guffaws from the crowd, Pinkel really is a "character" guy, in spite of his personal flaws of DUI/divorce, he doesn't sink his own ship that often. His record visa vie player graduation and GPA do speak for themselves, and he has no reluctance to pull the trigger on bouncing a problem player when it is warranted, yet again see DGB. In spite of being no ones brain trust chair elect, Pinkel doggedly aspires to do what he deems "the right thing" is, and it's hard to fault him for that.
Hope that helps fill in your "who is HCGP" in a nutshell questions.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:09 am to NeverToYield
quote:
I really REALLY wanted to rate him higher. What he's done with what he has is very good. However he has had some pretty bad lulls with some bad seasons in there to boot, hasn't really won anythign BIG yet, and of course...recruiting is still his responsibility as well so the fact he doesn't have elite talent does fall on him.
The biggest knock on him is his inability to take that next step and win something more. He quite honestly hasn't had any extended lulls during his tenure. We had the bad year our first year in the SEC but to understand the records in his first few years you have to understand the history of not just Mizzou football but Mizzou athletics.
We had an administration that thought college was all about books and I truly believe that if they thought they could actually get away with it, they would have gotten rid of the athletic department all together. So Mizzou football was a black hole for most of the 80's and 90's. It took GP a few years to get that turned around but since then the only bad season we had was 2012.
Now is he the coach to win the big game? Dunno. I'm not convinced. It may just be possible that he has maximized what Mizzou can achieve because they don't land the 5* and 4* players by the bucket full.
He has also had the chance to leave. Michigan years ago. Washington countless times. Who knows how many other jobs. 8/10 is probably about right until he wins more than a division.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:12 am to nebraskafaninwi
quote:
Nebraska throttled Missouri for like 25 years in a row
Everyone throttled Mizzou for more than 2 decades. Not just Nebraska. We can thank an administration that despised anything athletics related.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:21 am to WG_Dawg
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See I dont' know about that. You have to assume that there is an extreeeeeeeemely small group of 10/10s, in fact it's probably just 2; saban and meyer. Below them in the 9 category you have your borderline elite guys elsewhere like maybe patterson, harbaugh, etc. I'm not sure if pinkel is right there below those guys. Unlike OP, I would give him better than 6.5. I think he's solidly in the 7s somewhere.
Curious where you put Richt in the equation. The results Richt and GP have produced over the last 10 years I'm guessing are fairly comparable (without looking it up) yet Richt has the luxury of coaching at a school in a talent rich state that can pretty much recruit itself without Richt lifting a finger.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:23 am to reedus23
Sounds like he's the anti-Richt. 
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:31 am to Korin
I think that's fair
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:33 am to reedus23
quote:
Curious where you put Richt in the equation
I would probably have richt as a 8.0/10. He's obviously not 10/10, and isn't in the 9 category either with your "great" coaches either. I think he is in the 3rd tier down. I wouldn't go 8.5, becuse that's awfully close to 9, but I think a solid 8 is about right.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:41 am to WG_Dawg
Did you know Richt was a candidate for the Mizzou job when Pinkel was hired?
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:42 am to WG_Dawg
quote:
See I dont' know about that. You have to assume that there is an extreeeeeeeemely small group of 10/10s, in fact it's probably just 2; saban and meyer. Below them in the 9 category you have your borderline elite guys elsewhere like maybe patterson, harbaugh, etc. I'm not sure if pinkel is right there below those guys. Unlike OP, I would give him better than 6.5. I think he's solidly in the 7s somewhere.
yea I wouldn't say "perfect" for us, since we do know at least 2 coaches that could come in, coach lights out and win it all, if there are more than those 2, yea maybe, maybe not, Petersen/Patterson/Harbaugh, these guys bring it but are they THAT good? Good question.
if you look at championship coaching as 3 basic skill areas..
Recruiting
Recruiting talent, elite talent, in quantity
Recruiting for YOUR NEEDS
Development
Fill any talent gaps with 3star/average players.
Get your talent to produce.
Game Coach
X's and O's
Game time decisions.
If you do all 3 well, then you are there, if you do two of them really well, you might skimp a little on the third area and still get by. I see Pinkel as a little better than average at about half, and only average at the other half. Which probably describe a lot of coaches really.
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:43 am to Mizzou Mule
quote:
Did you know Richt was a candidate for the Mizzou job when Pinkel was hired?
They were hired in the same year, right?
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:49 am to NeverToYield
I see him being comparable to Snyder over at kstate. Now Mizzou wasn't as historically bad as kstate when he took the job, but I think the analogy (while it might be a stretch in many aspects) can still be made.
GP took the program and made it his own. Missouri football is literally GP and I don't think that is a bad thing. I would rate him somewhere between a 7-8/10 based on the consistency he has shown over his tenure here.
I have often wondered what Mizzou would look like with his coaching AND more 4 and 5* athletes. If he can hang around long enough we might find out. Mizzou, as you guys know by now, has always looked under rocks and around corners to develop guys that fit their system. If GP can add more 4/5* to that mix then we could possibly see him take Mizzou to the next level.
On a personal note, I am just thankful to have excitement going into each and every year. GP has brought the program up to the point that I think most Mizzou fans expect at least 8/9 wins every year. It makes things pretty fun around here when we plan tailgates, road trips, and watch parties.
GP took the program and made it his own. Missouri football is literally GP and I don't think that is a bad thing. I would rate him somewhere between a 7-8/10 based on the consistency he has shown over his tenure here.
I have often wondered what Mizzou would look like with his coaching AND more 4 and 5* athletes. If he can hang around long enough we might find out. Mizzou, as you guys know by now, has always looked under rocks and around corners to develop guys that fit their system. If GP can add more 4/5* to that mix then we could possibly see him take Mizzou to the next level.
On a personal note, I am just thankful to have excitement going into each and every year. GP has brought the program up to the point that I think most Mizzou fans expect at least 8/9 wins every year. It makes things pretty fun around here when we plan tailgates, road trips, and watch parties.
This post was edited on 7/2/15 at 11:50 am
Posted on 7/2/15 at 11:50 am to NeverToYield
The following are the records in the 15 years preceding HCGP.
1985 1–10
1986 3–8
1987 5–6
1988 3–7–1
1989 2–9
1990 4–7
1991 3–7–1
1992 3–8
1993 3–7–1
1994 3–8–1
1995 3–8
1996 5–6
1997 7–5
1998 8–4
1999 4–7
2000 3–8
He took over a dumpster fire. That's right, only 2 seasons above .500 in that 15 year span. I don't blame Pinkel for the poor performance of his teams in the first 2 years of his tenure.
1985 1–10
1986 3–8
1987 5–6
1988 3–7–1
1989 2–9
1990 4–7
1991 3–7–1
1992 3–8
1993 3–7–1
1994 3–8–1
1995 3–8
1996 5–6
1997 7–5
1998 8–4
1999 4–7
2000 3–8
He took over a dumpster fire. That's right, only 2 seasons above .500 in that 15 year span. I don't blame Pinkel for the poor performance of his teams in the first 2 years of his tenure.
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