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re: Explain the Harsin comparisons to DeBoer with logic.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 6:18 am to WeTheTide
Posted on 1/22/24 at 6:18 am to WeTheTide
quote:
Explain the Harsin comparisons to DeBoer with logic.
He did that in the PAC-12
There is not an elite coach in the whole damn nation that would come in immediately after Saban. You are gonna suck for a few years.
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Posted on 1/22/24 at 6:25 am to Che Boludo
If you have to ask
Posted on 1/22/24 at 6:32 am to Hot_in_the_box
quote:Other than all of those facts…
Hot_in_the_box
Posted on 1/22/24 at 9:37 am to 3down10
quote:
I gave you the 3 years of recruiting classes prior to Kelly arriving, and the 3 years of recruiting classes after he left.
If you want to believe something else without any data or idea what the frick you are talking about, that's your problem, not mine.
Actually, we both know you cherry picked a few classes that supported your argument and left the rest.
Recruiting class rankings per Rivals:
2002: #24
2003: #12
2004: #32
2005: #40
2006: #8
2007: #8
2008: #2
2009: #21
And you swore Notre Dame was consistently recruiting top 5 classes prior to Kelly being hired.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 9:38 am
Posted on 1/22/24 at 11:45 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Actually, we both know you cherry picked a few classes that supported your argument and left the rest.
Recruiting class rankings per Rivals:
2002: #24
2003: #12
2004: #32
2005: #40
2006: #8
2007: #8
2008: #2
2009: #21
And you swore Notre Dame was consistently recruiting top 5 classes prior to Kelly being hired.
If I was cherry picking anything I would have included the 2006 season. I didn't include it because the 3 years prior to BK was more than enough to establish the pattern. Also, all those classes you have ranked 8th are top5 on On3. You went searching to find the worst rankings you can find.
Beyond that, you are just highlighting the Tyrone Willingham era, who had the worst recruiting classes for ND probably in their entire history. I guess you don't ND getting hit with sanctions in 2000, and you don't remember George O'Leary getting fired after like a week of being on the job for ND and ND having to scramble to find a new coach in 2002.
To say Tyrone Willingham was an example of how the school recruited in general, rather than the 3-4 years the guy before BK arrived is just you looking for anything to harp on to make excuses. It's just fricking ignorant.
If you want to be ignorant and live in your excuses, be my guest. I've laid out the facts for you, deny them if you want.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 11:52 am to Hot_in_the_box
quote:
Harsin is from the north west with no SEC ties.
Deboer is from the North West with no SEC ties.
Top 25 classes prior to SEC:
Debeor- 0
Harsin- 0
Highest ranked class recruiting:
Harsin- #19
Deboer- #26
Washington had Top 25 recruiting classes every year under Peterson. Even between Peterson and Deboer Washington class was #16 and #30. When Deboer took over his classes was ranked #90 and #26 at Washington. Washington has been recruiting good for a long time. He did not do well there.
Harsin also recruited his own players at Boise State and won with them.
Debeor spent 2 years at Fresno and 2 at Washington. He has won with other coaches players including Chris Peterson guys. Peterson left the team in good shape and most of Peterson guys was on that team last 2 years. I expect Bama recruiting to take a hit under Debeor.
Chris Peterson retired in 2019. Jimmy Lake was the headcoach of Washington before DeBoer. DeBoer took over a team that had 4 wins the previous season.
Harsin was the one who followed Chris Peterson. He took over a team that was considered a BCS buster.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 11:58 am to 3down10
quote:
Also, all those classes you have ranked 8th are top5 on On3. You went searching to find the worst rankings you can find.
Um no, I used Rivals because they were basically the only service ranking recruiting classes back then.
On3 was not around.
quote:
Beyond that, you are just highlighting the Tyrone Willingham era, who had the worst recruiting classes for ND probably in their entire history. I guess you don't ND getting hit with sanctions in 2000, and you don't remember George O'Leary getting fired after like a week of being on the job for ND and ND having to scramble to find a new coach in 2002.
To say Tyrone Willingham was an example of how the school recruited in general, rather than the 3-4 years the guy before BK arrived is just you looking for anything to harp on to make excuses. It's just fricking ignorant.
If you want to be ignorant and live in your excuses, be my guest. I've laid out the facts for you, deny them if you want.
Willingham was only at Notre Dame from 2002-2004.
I gave you 2002-2009. 2002 is as far back as Rivals goes. Kelly was hired prior to the 2010 season.
Not only are you attempting to deflect now that your narrative has been debunked, you're an outright liar.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 11:59 am to Wolfhound45
quote:
Other than all of those facts…
Other than the fact he got everything backwards.
Harsin was the one who followed Chris Petersen, not DeBoer. Boise St went from Championship contenders(BCS Busters) to losing 3-4 games a year. Boise St fans were glad to see Harsin go.
Peterson retired in 2019. DeBoer followed Jimmy Lake. Washington won 4 games the year before DeBoer took over. Washington fans were not happy to see DeBoer go.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:07 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Um no, I used Rivals because they were basically the only service ranking recruiting classes back then.
On3 was not around.
And nobody uses rivals because their methods and rankings sucks.
quote:
Willingham was only at Notre Dame from 2002-2004.
I gave you 2002-2009. 2002 is as far back as Rivals goes. Kelly was hired prior to the 2010 season.
Not only are you attempting to deflect now that your narrative has been debunked, you're an outright liar.
2002-2004 is 3 years for a football coach. And 2005 was the first year for Weis, aka not his first full class.
Your entire argument that Notre Dame isn't a school that recruits well literally rests only on the Tyrone Willingham era.
That's just ignorant and you only do it because you need to make excuses for your coach nobody else wants.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:11 pm to 3down10
quote:
And nobody uses rivals because their methods and rankings sucks.
That's cool, who else was ranking classes back then?
quote:
2002-2004 is 3 years for a football coach. And 2005 was the first year for Weis, aka not his first full class.
Your entire argument that Notre Dame isn't a school that recruits well literally rests only on the Tyrone Willingham era.
That's just ignorant and you only do it because you need to make excuses for your coach nobody else wants.
You have moved the goalposts all over the place.
Maybe one day, somehow, you will understand that Notre Dame isn't an elite program anymore and hasn't been for some time.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:18 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
That's cool, who else was ranking classes back then?
Nobody, that's the only reason people used them...back then. But On3 has rankings for them now, and that is the formula everyone uses today and thinks is the best.
Besides that, having them ranked 8th instead of 4th and 5th is not some big flex. That you think 3 and 4 spots makes that much of a difference only goes to highlight how weak your overall argument is. The fact remains that Notre Dame did not recruit poorly before BK, they aren't recruiting poorly after BK.
quote:
You have moved the goalposts all over the place.
Maybe one day, somehow, you will understand that Notre Dame isn't an elite program anymore and hasn't been for some time.
The only one moving the goal posts is you. Since I said right away they weren't elite, they were a blue blood. Learn the difference.
Before Saban, nobody was calling Alabama an elite program either, just a blue blood.
People have been making fun of Michigan for the past 20 years, they weren't an elite program, just a blue blood.
Maybe you just can't see the goal post because you have no concept of football beyond the past 10 years.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 12:20 pm
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:24 pm to 3down10
quote:
But On3 has rankings for them now, and that is the formula everyone uses today and thinks is the best.
I haven't seen anyone use this, except you
quote:
Besides that, having them ranked 8th instead of 4th and 5th is not some big flex. That you think 3 and 4 spots makes that much of a difference only goes to highlight how weak your overall argument is. The fact remains that Notre Dame did not recruit poorly before BK, they aren't recruiting poorly after BK.
I never said they "recruit poorly."
I said they are no longer an elite program and being a blue blood doesn't matter in modern college football.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:30 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
I haven't saw anyone use this, except you
So you are claiming everyone uses rivals? I could believe you are still using 24/7, but rivals?
quote:
I never said they "recruit poorly."
I said they are no longer an elite program and being a blue blood doesn't matter in modern college football.
Here is your quote:
Being a blue blood doesn't mean shite anymore. Notre Dame isn't a top 10 team in terms of talent, recruiting, facilities, or NIL resources. They aren't as financially committed to football as the actual elite programs, it's why they haven't won a major bowl game in 30 years.
Even the lowest rankings you could find have them in the top10 before BK. You had to go back 5 years prior to BK to make an argument to find a coach who was a bad recruiter.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:33 pm to WeTheTide
quote:
Explain the Harsin comparisons to DeBoer with logic.
Not going to happen. quote:
Y’all are retarded.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:34 pm to 3down10
And the funny thing about Willingham is he went to coach at Washington after being fired from Notre Dame. He went 11-37 there and gave a Washington a legit 0-12 season. Legit meaning, not vacated wins, they were just that bad.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:44 pm to 3down10
quote:
Here is your quote:
Being a blue blood doesn't mean shite anymore. Notre Dame isn't a top 10 team in terms of talent, recruiting, facilities, or NIL resources. They aren't as financially committed to football as the actual elite programs, it's why they haven't won a major bowl game in 30 years.
Even the lowest rankings you could find have them in the top10 before BK. You had to go back 5 years prior to BK to make an argument to find a coach who was a bad recruiter.
I'm speaking big picture here, they are not a consistent, top 10 recruiting team and haven't been for a long time.
2 or 3 top 10 classes here and there do not change the fact that they're outside of the top 10 more often than they're in it.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 1/22/24 at 12:54 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
I'm speaking big picture here, they are not a consistent, top 10 recruiting team and haven't been for a long time.
2 or 3 top 10 classes here and there do not change the fact that they're outside of the top 10 more often than they're in it.
If you want to pretend like Notre Dame didn't recruit well prior to recruiting rankings, then you can just be wrong and sound dumb to older fans.
Will you also take that time period and make the claim that Alabama never recruits well and isn't a top 10 program because they didn't have any top10 classes in the years leading up to Saban?
Btw, Notre Dame has 3 top10 classes just in the past 3 years. The only one taking a few years and trying to act like that is the norm is you with Willingham.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 12:58 pm
Posted on 1/22/24 at 1:06 pm to 3down10
quote:
If you want to pretend like Notre Dame didn't recruit well prior to recruiting rankings, then you can just be wrong and sound dumb to older fans.
Oh they definitely did, they were an absolutely elite program at one time.
That's my point, they aren't anymore and haven't been, since at least the late 90's.
quote:
Will you also take that time period and make the claim that Alabama never recruits well and isn't a top 10 program because they didn't have any top10 classes in the years leading up to Saban?
Alabama was heading down the same path, luckily Saban was able to get it all turned around.
Also, the Alabama administration made a financial commitment to football, unlike Notre Dame.
It isn't that Notre Dame can't be elite, they just haven't made the financial commitment to being elite in the 21st century.
The academic workload at a place like Notre Dame only makes it that much more difficult.
For all the Marcus Freeman hype, they're undoubtedly taken a step back during his tenure.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 1:13 pm to 3down10
DeBoer won everywhere he went. He dominated at Sioux Falls in NAIA, went 9-3 at Fresno State (Mountain West) and did really well at Washington (Pac-12).
Harsin won everywhere he went. Harsin won the Sun Belt at Arkansas State. Dominated the Mountain West at Boise State. He was a miserable failure at Auburn.
Winning everywhere doesn't mean a damn thing if you didn't win in the SEC, or maybe at a top 10-15 all time school. Winning at Washington, Fresno and certainly in the NAIA don't mean a thing.
Harsin won everywhere he went. Harsin won the Sun Belt at Arkansas State. Dominated the Mountain West at Boise State. He was a miserable failure at Auburn.
Winning everywhere doesn't mean a damn thing if you didn't win in the SEC, or maybe at a top 10-15 all time school. Winning at Washington, Fresno and certainly in the NAIA don't mean a thing.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 1:14 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Oh they definitely did, they were an absolutely elite program at one time.
That's my point, they aren't anymore and haven't been, since at least the late 90's.
Their last 3 classes have been top10 classes.
4 of their 5 classes before BK were top10 class.
The only 2 times they didn't bring in top10 classes consistently were the Willingham and BK years. BK still managed top15 classes to be fair.
quote:
Alabama was heading down the same path, luckily Saban was able to get it all turned around.
Also, the Alabama administration made a financial commitment to football, unlike Notre Dame.
It isn't that Notre Dame can't be elite, they just haven't made the financial commitment to being elite in the 21st century.
The academic workload at a place like Notre Dame only makes it that much more difficult.
For all the Marcus Freeman hype, they're undoubtedly taken a step back during his tenure.
Again, Notre Dame's last 3 recruiting classes have been top10 classes. Their recruiting has improved since BK left, not taken a step back. They just finished 10-3, about the same as they would under BK.
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