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Posted on 1/21/24 at 2:53 pm to WeTheTide
Husky Harsin is a great coach to follow Saban for the Bama fans to squash later.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:22 pm to SidewalkTiger
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They're both guys with no SEC ties, their prior recruiting has been questioned, they're well respected coaches, a lot of staff continuity, and they've won everywhere they've been.
DeBoer played for a natty in his 2nd season at the P5 level and Kelly did in his 3rd, both were dominated.
The biggest difference in Kelly is 0-2 in playoff games and DeBoer is 1-0, but as we've said, Kelly ran into some elite teams where DeBoer had a perfect matchup for his team.
Kelly is 0-3 in post season championship play.
quote:
Being a blue blood doesn't mean shite anymore. Notre Dame isn't a top 10 team in terms of talent, recruiting, facilities, or NIL resources. They aren't as financially committed to football as the actual elite programs, it's why they haven't won a major bowl game in 30 years.
Before Brian Kelly, ND recruited in the top5. #5 in 2007, #4 in 2008, down to #17 in 2009, the year BK came in and replaced the existing coach. I don't remember if BK wasn't able to retain the class or if it never got up due to coach being fired rumors though.
Under Brian Kelly, ND recruited in the 11-15 range.
Since BK, they have classes ranked 6th, 10th and 10th. So their recruiting was better before BK and has gotten better since he was replaced.
So I guess I just don't know what the hell you are talking about.
As far as the 30 years thing, BK was HC for 11 of those 30 years.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 4:23 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:31 pm to 3down10
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Kelly is 0-3 in post season championship play.
And your guy is 1-1.
They both faltered when running into elite teams.
Actually, they got their arse kicked.
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Since BK, they have classes ranked 6th, 10th and 10th. So their recruiting was better before BK and has gotten better since he was replaced.
So I guess I just don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Per the 247 Composite;
2023: #12
2024: Currently at #11
quote:
As far as the 30 years thing, BK was HC for 11 of those 30 years.
No doubt, what about the rest of that time?
Even a bad coach can win a major bowl game if a program is truly top tier.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 4:34 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:38 pm to SidewalkTiger
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And your guy is 1-1.
They both faltered when running into elite teams.
Actually, they got their arse kicked.
DeBoer has a 17 point loss.
Kelly has losses of 28, 17 and 27. For an average loss of 24 points.
quote:
Per the 247 Composite;
2023: #12
2024: Currently at #11
Why didn't you use On3? I thought nobody used 247 anymore? Anyway, #10 and #10 on On3.
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No doubt, what about the rest of that time?
Even a bad coach can win a major bowl game if a program is truly top tier.
You said they didn't recruit well. Obviously your opinion of ND recruiting is only based on the times when BK was coach.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 4:43 pm to 3down10
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DeBoer has a 17 point loss.
Kelly has losses of 28, 17 and 27. For an average loss of 24 points.
So BK has given up a touchdown more when facing elite teams.
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You said they didn't recruit well. Obviously your opinion of ND recruiting is only based on the times when BK was coach
I said they generally don't recruit top 10, Notre Dame hasn't been an elite program for awhile.
If you want to talk bad recruiting, then DeBoer certainly fits in that conversation as well.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:05 pm to SidewalkTiger
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So BK has given up a touchdown more when facing elite teams.
I made a mistake earlier, Deboer lost by 21, not 17.
But we can dive a little deeper since you want. I certainly don't mind.
In 2012, 14 of the points BK scored happened in garbage time, and the only thing he could do at half time was talk about how good the other team was.
In 2020, 7 of the points BK scored happened in garbage time.
BK's teams scored a total of 10 points non garbage time points in 3 games. A single TD in 2020 and a single FG in 2018. He is the poster boy for being outclassed and outcoached.
DeBoer hasn't even had garbage time in these games. 14 of the 21 points he lost by were scored in the 4th quarter. So you can pretend like those losses were equal, but BK's losses were worse than the scores showed.
I don't know what to tell you, they are not the same. If BK came to Alabama, that would have been a melt.
quote:
I said they generally don't recruit top 10, Notre Dame hasn't been an elite program for awhile.
If you want to talk bad recruiting, then DeBoer certainly fits in that conversation as well.
They recruited top5 until Kelly came. Their coaches just never coached up the talent.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 5:08 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:12 pm to 3down10
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I don't know what to tell you, they are not the same. If BK came to Alabama, that would have been a melt.
The fact that you're having to claim moral victories over scoring or not scoring garbage time points in single game matchups tells us both just how similar they are.
quote:
They recruited top5 until Kelly came. Their coaches just never coached up the talent.
No reason to lie about their recruiting. Times have changed, Grandpa. Notre Dame hasn't been an elite program in a very long time.
Also, like I said, if you want to talk bad recruiting, we can put both guys in that category.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:23 pm to SidewalkTiger
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The fact that you're having to claim moral victories over scoring or not scoring garbage time points in single game matchups tells us both just how similar they are.
I'm not claiming moral anything. In fact, I'm being generous by not even talking about the fact Deboer has a win, and just looked at the losses as if all things are equal.
Regardless of what you want to claim, BK was repeatedly embarrassed on the big stage.
quote:
No reason to lie about their recruiting. Times have changed, Grandpa. Notre Dame hasn't been an elite program in a very long time.
Also, like I said, if you want to talk bad recruiting, we can put both guys in that category.
I didn't tell a single lie about their recruiting. They pulled in top5 classes and top talent regularly before Brian Kelly. ND was the only school to have it's own deal with a major network, and that network didn't show others.
I don't know how long you've been a fan of the game, but your view point of ND is obviously based on the BK years, not what they actually were before then. I guess it's just another example of an LSU fan thinking college football started in the year 2000.
We'll see how DeBoer recruits, it's certainly something to keep an eye on...once he can actually start recruiting.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:32 pm to 3down10
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In fact, I'm being generous by not even talking about the fact Deboer has a win, and just looked at the losses as if all things are equal.
Don't be "generous" on my account.
We both know BK faced elite teams in the postseason while DeBoer's win came over a very flawed Texas team that they were a perfect matchup for.
I mean this entire thread is about using logic.
quote:
I didn't tell a single lie about their recruiting. They pulled in top5 classes and top talent regularly before Brian Kelly. ND was the only school to have it's own deal with a major network, and that network didn't show others
List their decade of classes prior to BK then.
We both know you won't because they actually didn't consistently recruit in top 5.
They only fell further and further behind in the 2000's as the actual elite programs invested more and more.
These days, Notre Dame still has a huge brand but they're only a top 15 program.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:43 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Don't be "generous" on my account.
We both know BK faced elite teams in the postseason while DeBoer's win came over a very flawed Texas team that they were a perfect matchup for.
I mean this entire thread is about using logic.
You tell me about using logic, but then just find an excuse to dismiss the win over Texas. Nevermind the fact Texas recruits top5 constantly, apparently very important when it comes to ND and that it was done with lesser talent, meaning - he coached them up.
quote:
List their decade of classes prior to BK then.
We both know you won't because they actually didn't consistently recruit in top 5.
They only fell further and further behind in the 2000's as the actual elite programs invested more and more.
These days, Notre Dame still has a huge brand but they're only a top 15 program.
I went back a few years already and showed you multiple top5 classes from the coach prior to BK. Recruiting information doesn't go back much further. I suppose you can start looking up the number of NFL players if you want.
As I said before, I can only assume based on your comments you are a somewhat recent(past 20 years) college football fan.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 5:57 pm to 3down10
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You tell me about using logic, but then just find an excuse to dismiss the win over Texas. Nevermind the fact Texas recruits top5 constantly, apparently very important when it comes to ND and that it was done with lesser talent, meaning - he coached them up.
Does 2023 Washington beat 2012 Alabama, 2018 Clemson, or 2020 Alabama.
A simple yes and no and no deflection will suffice.
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I went back a few years already and showed you multiple top5 classes from the coach prior to BK.
Didn't you actually cherry pick two classes and then pretend Notre Dame consistently recruited top 5?
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As I said before, I can only assume based on your comments you are a somewhat recent(past 20 years) college football fan.
And I can only assume you're an old man who still thinks programs like Notre Dame, Nebraska, and USC are still elite.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 6:37 pm to 3down10
quote:
I don't know how long you've been a fan of the game, but your view point of ND is obviously based on the BK years, not what they actually were before then. I guess it's just another example of an LSU fan thinking college football started in the year 2000.
Nailed it!
Posted on 1/21/24 at 8:28 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
Does 2023 Washington beat 2012 Alabama, 2018 Clemson, or 2020 Alabama.
A simple yes and no and no deflection will suffice.
No
Do any of those ND teams beat 2023 Washington?
Also No.
quote:
Didn't you actually cherry pick two classes and then pretend Notre Dame consistently recruited top 5?
No, I went back 3 years before BK was hired. AKA the classes and program BK inherited. I'm not sure how far back you can beyond that, but I know it won't be very far. They didn't have rating systems for recruits like 5 stars etc. If you want to try and figure out who had talent before then, you'll just have to check out the NFL rosters.
quote:
And I can only assume you're an old man who still thinks programs like Notre Dame, Nebraska, and USC are still elite.
They are blue bloods and they can come alive at any time. You are saying the exact same shite people would say about Alabama in 2006.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 9:11 pm to 3down10
quote:
No
Do any of those ND teams beat 2023 Washington?
Also No.
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No, I went back 3 years before BK was hired. AKA the classes and program BK inherited. I'm not sure how far back you can beyond that, but I know it won't be very far. They didn't have rating systems for recruits like 5 stars etc. If you want to try and figure out who had talent before then, you'll just have to check out the NFL rosters
So you're saying you made a statement without any actual evidence for said statement?
Shocking.
quote:
They are blue bloods and they can come alive at any time. You are saying the exact same shite people would say about Alabama in 2006.
Has Alabama ever went 30 years without winning a major bowl game, regardless of coach?
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 9:13 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 11:03 pm to SidewalkTiger
quote:
So you're saying you made a statement without any actual evidence for said statement?
Shocking.
No, you are just dumb. If you want to use a stick to measure talent before recruiting services, look at the teams that produced the most NFL talent.
Who is the #1 producer of NFL talent according to the number of kids drafted? Notre Dame
But I guess keep on holding on to your 1 stat about bowl games as if it means anything about program strength, or recruitment levels.
quote:
Has Alabama ever went 30 years without winning a major bowl game, regardless of coach?
Nope, but I hope Notre Dame goes another 30 years without winning one.
Posted on 1/21/24 at 11:08 pm to 3down10
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No, you are just dumb. If you want to use a stick to measure talent before recruiting services, look at the teams that produced the most NFL talent.
You stated they consistently recruited top 5 classes prior to Kelly's arrival.
When pressed to provide proof, you deflected and made excuses.
It's interesting that Alabama fans want people to judge their hire with logic yet they also want to trash other coaches with fabricated statements and statistics.
But the crimson crazies have always been a low IQ, hypocritical bunch.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 11:11 pm
Posted on 1/21/24 at 11:54 pm to 3down10
quote:that was the topic of the OP, my initial reply was to your contention that DeBoer was “great” based on a two-year sample size.
the topic of this thread was his comparison to Harsin and I am saying the 2 are no where near the same.
and FTR, Harsin wasn’t “terrible” either, just not capable of handling the competitive pressure of coaching at the major college level. “terrible” HCs dont win multiple conference championships and have .750 winning percentages. “Average” or “mediocre”, certainly, but its not like Boise started having 7-5 years on his watch.
he struggled adapting to the SEC, pissed off the wrong people, then after the stupid “internal investigation” foolishness said “frick it, ima gone mail it in and make em pay me to pump iron and build dragsters year-round” - which is more a testament to his shittiness as an employee more than his coaching ability, but i’ll admit thats a distinction with very little difference.
i note that you failed to respond to my belief that you would never have considered DeBoer a “great” HC prior to this most recent season. If you can recall ever mentioning him as a potential replacement for Saban on this or any other forum at any point before, say, two months ago, i would be very interested.
and describing a guy who will turn 50 during the upcoming season as “young” makes sense only in comparison to the age of the guy he’s replacing (who, by contrast, was in his 7th season as a P5 HC on his 50th birthday).
quote:Perkins: 4 years as an NFL HC
So who are these coaches with more major college experience than DeBoer? I have no idea what in the hell you are talking about.
Curry: 7 as a P5 HC
Stallings: 7 as a P5 HC, 4 as an NFL HC
Price: 14 as a P5 HC
all with far more experience in “big boy” football, every one either being fired or leaving early due to clashes with the people overseeing the program (and i include Price because i firmly believe if he had the kind of unbridled enthusiastic support coming in that Saban had, his shenanigans in my hometown would likely never have made the papers).
like i said before, i feel like DeBoer has a decent chance to succeed at the Capstone, despite what appears to be a less than stellar first couple of weeks on the job. i merely take issue with your assumption that he is already a “great” HC based on essentially two seasons playing in what is now no longer a major conference.
you obviously disagree. thats your prerogative. i’m just saying that Bama is committing a huge amount of money - likely more than AU has paid in buyouts to all of their previous HCs combined - based on a hunch.
thats a risky move, even if the hunch is a good one. ask our friends in College Station about that.
This post was edited on 1/21/24 at 11:58 pm
Posted on 1/22/24 at 1:10 am to SidewalkTiger
quote:
You stated they consistently recruited top 5 classes prior to Kelly's arrival.
When pressed to provide proof, you deflected and made excuses.
It's interesting that Alabama fans want people to judge their hire with logic yet they also want to trash other coaches with fabricated statements and statistics.
But the crimson crazies have always been a low IQ, hypocritical bunch.
I gave you the 3 years of recruiting classes prior to Kelly arriving, and the 3 years of recruiting classes after he left.
If you want to believe something else without any data or idea what the frick you are talking about, that's your problem, not mine.
Posted on 1/22/24 at 2:05 am to WeTheTide
quote:
Explain the Harsin comparisons to DeBoer with logic
Harsin is from the north west with no SEC ties.
Deboer is from the North West with no SEC ties.
Top 25 classes prior to SEC:
Debeor- 0
Harsin- 0
Highest ranked class recruiting:
Harsin- #19
Deboer- #26
Washington had Top 25 recruiting classes every year under Peterson. Even between Peterson and Deboer Washington class was #16 and #30. When Deboer took over his classes was ranked #90 and #26 at Washington. Washington has been recruiting good for a long time. He did not do well there.
Harsin also recruited his own players at Boise State and won with them.
Debeor spent 2 years at Fresno and 2 at Washington. He has won with other coaches players including Chris Peterson guys. Peterson left the team in good shape and most of Peterson guys was on that team last 2 years. I expect Bama recruiting to take a hit under Debeor.
This post was edited on 1/22/24 at 3:44 am
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