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re: Bookmark : Stanford, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan St, and Minnesota fear SEC venues?
Posted on 10/15/14 at 6:28 pm to Cheese Grits
Posted on 10/15/14 at 6:28 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:why? So we might as well not count any SWC wins against anyone because that conference was so unbelievably dirty. Might as well do the same for the SEC since this conference has had its share
Not during that point, probably not, and not just against the SEC.
quote:um wins stay with the schools. Not the conference. I wouldn't be surprised if the SEC counts A&Ms national championships in its national championship count. They dont count PCC championships as PAC championships. Especially since the PAC 8 was essentially just a reorganization of the AAWU which was essentially just a reorganization of the PCC minus Idaho. Montana was out of the conference before the crisis
The bigger point is that if you disband a conference all new wins accrue to the new conference and all old wins stay with the old conference. When the PAC tallies NCAA hardware, they do it partly with PCC hardware
This post was edited on 10/15/14 at 6:30 pm
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Posted on 10/15/14 at 6:43 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
They dont count PCC championships as PAC championships.
Really? LINK
Looks like they say the PAC started in 1915, which it did not. Looks like they count 1939, 1942, and 1959 as PAC, which they are not.
Keep in mind this is not football and the all elusive MNC puffing, but NCAA basketball where the NCAA actually awards the NC trophy.
Note, the Big 8 is kept separate from the Big 12 and the SWC is not listed as they did not win any.
Posted on 10/15/14 at 6:59 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:which is why I was discussing conference championships. or maybe they do, my understanding was that the conference claims the national titles but not the conference titles. they could. which honestly I dont care. PAC 8 was essentially just a re organization of the PCC. still doesn't get back to why games won by schools in the PCC over schools from different conferences shouldn't count today. it wasn't the SEC forming from leftover schools of when a bunch of schools left the southern conference (or whatever it was called), or the merging of the big 8 and the SWC. it was the schools breaking a part and forming a new conference together in a span of five years.
Really? LINK
This post was edited on 10/15/14 at 7:04 pm
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:04 pm to Cheese Grits
Here is the listing for M basketball from the official PAC website LINK
Note, it starts from 1915 (when the PAC did not even exist) and continues non stop until today. At best the PAC could possibly claim from 1960 on, tho 1964 is probably closer to the reality but the PCC ended in 1959.
Dead
Fin
Kaput
Dirt nap
Took a powder
Casper
No mo
Dodo
Expired
Deceased
Extinct
Shuffled the coil
Kick the bucket
Assume room temperature
Cashed in the chips
Pushing up daisies
Put on the pine overcoat
Note, it starts from 1915 (when the PAC did not even exist) and continues non stop until today. At best the PAC could possibly claim from 1960 on, tho 1964 is probably closer to the reality but the PCC ended in 1959.
Dead
Fin
Kaput
Dirt nap
Took a powder
Casper
No mo
Dodo
Expired
Deceased
Extinct
Shuffled the coil
Kick the bucket
Assume room temperature
Cashed in the chips
Pushing up daisies
Put on the pine overcoat
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:08 pm to WestCoastAg
Okay back on track
a) should the PAC and PCC be separated and counted as 2 different conferences?
b) If you disband to avoid the death penalty as a conference, should you get away scot free?
What is your answer to these 2 questions?
a) should the PAC and PCC be separated and counted as 2 different conferences?
b) If you disband to avoid the death penalty as a conference, should you get away scot free?
What is your answer to these 2 questions?
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:11 pm to Cheese Grits
the PAC as currently formed dates back to directly after the breakup in 59 as when UCLA, USC, Stanford, Cal, and Washington formed the AAWU. they were called the big 5. the group then went to six a few years later with Washington state. they then went to 8 when the Oregon schools rejoined in 64. I don't think they renamed the conference until 68 though. could have been 69. my understanding was they kept the national titles because they view the PAC 8, 10, and 12 as the PCC, just reorganized. so they claim the history of championships going back to when the PCC formed in 1915 because the conference still views the PCC as part of its history
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:13 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:I think there is a difference between the two. the PCC falling a part and then the conference not recovering everyone until 64. but I have no problem with the PAC claiming PCC history as its own when the PAC is just a re organization of it
a) should the PAC and PCC be separated and counted as 2 different conferences?
quote:how much closer was this conference to the death penalty than the SWC in the 80s?
) If you disband to avoid the death penalty as a conference, should you get away scot free?
This post was edited on 10/15/14 at 7:14 pm
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:13 pm to Cheese Grits
Are there any SEC teams who have not played a road game in every Big 5 conference?
I know recently Alabama has played:
Pac 12 @UCLA
Big 12 @Oklahoma
ACC @Duke
Big Ten @Penn St
I know recently Alabama has played:
Pac 12 @UCLA
Big 12 @Oklahoma
ACC @Duke
Big Ten @Penn St
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:24 pm to Cheese Grits
Nice thread Grits... 
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:29 pm to Monticello
quote:
Are there any SEC teams who have not played a road game in every Big 5 conference?
We've played Ariz. St., Colorado, OK. St, Clemson and/or GT in the last 5-7 years & we played at Mich. in '64 or '65...
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:31 pm to Monticello
quote:
Are there any SEC teams who have not played a road game in every Big 5 conference?
Following the basic rules set forth:
1) Team must be a member of the SEC at the time the game was played; and
2) The opponent must be a member of the B1G when the game was played, here are the SIX SEC teams that have not played in a B1G venue:
1. Auburn
2. Tennessee
3. Ole Miss
4. Arkansas
5. South Carolina
6. Texas A&M
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:39 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
Iowa CONFIRMED - thanks to Porky and madmaxvol
Michigan CONFIRMED - thanks to OldPete and madmaxvol
Michigan State CONFIRMED - thanks to Porky and madmaxvol
Minnesota CONFIRMED - thanks to OldPete and madmaxvol
Michigan State played @ Kentucky in the regular season in 1946.
Michigan played @ Vanderbilt in the regular season in 1922.
Iowa...to be fair no SEC team has traveled there either.
Minnesota. Legit, has never played a regular season game against an SEC foe at an SEC location.
This post was edited on 10/15/14 at 7:42 pm
Posted on 10/15/14 at 7:56 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
how much closer was this conference to the death penalty than the SWC in the 80s?
The PCC scandal started in the late 1940's and continued till the conference disbanded in 1957 although the official death certificate was not entered until 1959. First light was cast on Washington and Oregon. Once the NCAA started handing out sanctions, they rolled over on UCLA. While UCLA was stalling with the NCAA they rolled over on Southern Cal and Cal by outing the SCEF and the SFGC. By that time the PCC had become the tar baby of the NCAA and everybody was looking at several years of TV bans and postseason bans, so they disbanded the conference.
Since the PCC was dissolved it meant the Rose Bowl was no longer bound by contract to the PCC. Needless to say this was not good for TV, advertisers, or the B1G as the west half of the deal no longer existed. To avoid the quickly escalating crisis the AAWU was formed at the beginning of the fiscal year - July 1st, 1959 - so they could save the 1959 season that culminated in the 1960 Rose Bowl. I think Washington got in that year's Rose Bowl which negated the NCAA sanctions and post season's ban.
Of the AAWU - or initial Big 5 - 4 of the 5 schools were the ones causing the PCC to disband (Southern Cal, UCLA, Cal, and Washington) and Idaho was not included even tho they had no proven part in the PCC scandal. If this had not been a lucrative demographic with a valuable Bowl property it would have made the SWC look like amateur hour. To put it in perspective, say the Big 12 before realignment (swap Hogs for Iowa State) was the SWC and the conference owned 1/2 interest in the Cotton bowl. Do you think they would give the death penalty to Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Kansas, and Arkansas all in the same year?
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:03 pm to SadSouthernBuck
Arkansas plays at Michigan in 2018 and Michgan comes to Fayetteville in 2019.
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:04 pm to Cheese Grits
I know a decent amount of everything that happened in the crisis.
quote:um no. The SWC made everyone else look like amateur hour. To even try to pass off as what was going on in the SWC in the 80s as not being the single most dirty and corrupt conference in the history of college sports is just dumb. You had the fricking Texas Governor in it
it would have made the SWC look like amateur hour
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:18 pm to SadSouthernBuck
quote:
5. South Carolina
6. Texas A&M
Really? that is why I pretty much excluded them from the OP
Look at the 4 B1G schools in my 2nd post on the first page. Look at how often games were played at B1G schools with no return trips. Easier to rack up B1G wins if you get to play games where you get to sleep in your own bed on gameday.
Iowa and the SEC
Arkansas - 1925 @ Iowa City :::: no return trip @ Arkansas
Texas A&M - 1931 @ Dallas :::: did not stop Iowa from traveling to Texas
Michigan and the SEC
Georgia - 1957 @ Ann Arbor and 1965 @ Ann Arbor :::: Michigan owes 2 trips to Athens
Kentucky - 1908 @ Ann Arbor :::: Michigan owes a return trip to Lexington
Missouri - 1955, 1959, 1969, and 1975 @ Ann Arbor :::: Michigan owes 4 trips to Columbia
South Carolina - 1980 @ Ann Arbor, 1985 @ Columbia (pre SEC H&H) :::: Shows UM knows how it is supposed to work
Texas A&M - 1970 and 1977 @ Ann Arbor :::: Michigans owes 2 trips to College Station
Vanderbilt - 1905, 1906, 1908, 1911, 1914, 1923, 1969, and 2006 @ Ann Arbor : 1907, 1913, and 1922 @ Nashville
(Michigan oves 5 trips to Nashville just to stand even with Vanderbilt)
Michigan State and the SEC
Kentucky - 1944 and 1946 in Lexington : 1945 and 1947 in East Lansing (MI ST was IND back then)
(shows Michigan State understands home and homes as an IND)
Mississippi State - 1928, 1946, and 1947 @ East Lansing : 1929 @ Jackson, MS :::: owes a few free trips to Starkville
Texas A&M - 1934 @ San Antonio, 1952 @ East Lansing, and 1959 @ East Lansing :::: owes College Station a trip
Minnesota and the SEC
Missouri - 8 games 1943, 1944, 1945, 1961, 1962, and 1965 @ Minneapolis : 1966 and 1970 @ Columbia
(looks like Mizzou is due 6 trips to level the numbers)
Vanderbilt - 1924, 1929, 1930, and 1959 @ Minneapolis :::: Gophers have not even played 1 trip back to Nashville
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:28 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
I know a decent amount of everything that happened in the crisis.
PCC or the SWC?
Again, I said to view the SWC as tho it was the B12 + Hogs - Cyclones. SWC was basically just Texas. PCC was multiple states (CA, WA, and OR) so think like :
Souther Cal = Oklahoma
Washington = Nebraska
UCLA = Texas
Cal = Arkansas
Oregon = Texas A&M
Behind the scenes I am gonna guess the governors of CA, WA, and OR were all working the phones to save the schools and the Rose Bowl. Remember, for all the stuff happening in the SWC, it was the small, private school, who had to fall on the sword for everybody else. The dumbassery of the SWC was that it was all out in the public. PAC covered the tracks so well most folks are not even aware there was a PCC.
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:33 pm to Cheese Grits
The PCC. I'm fairly versed in what went down with it and what happened with the break up and AAWU
quote:did they get the full force of it all? Yea. But schools like Baylor, TCU, a&m, even rice, etc where getting caught. Hell multiple programs would be on probation at the same time. What I'm getting at is why does it make sense to not count any of the wins that the PCC had over other conferences but its ok for the SWC to do so when the SWC was the PCC on steroids? Or the SEC when it has had its fair share of run ins with the NCAA
Remember, for all the stuff happening in the SWC, it was the small, private school, who had to fall on the sword for everybody else.
quote:yep. And you had public officials, like the governor of Texas, in it as well
The dumbassery of the SWC was that it was all out in the public
quote:yea probably. But I think the fact that it all went down 55 years ago might have something to do with that as well
PAC covered the tracks so well most folks are not even aware there was a PCC.
This post was edited on 10/15/14 at 8:36 pm
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:46 pm to Cheese Grits
The Aggies visited us in 1980. Hershel ran wild and we won 42-0.
Posted on 10/15/14 at 8:57 pm to WestCoastAg
quote:
What I'm getting at is why does it make sense to not count any of the wins that the PCC had over other conferences but its ok for the SWC to do so when the SWC was the PCC on steroids?
Again, even if the PCC gets to keep all the wins, should they accrue to pad the PAC stats?
Yes or No
If you disband a conference, should those trophies accrue to brand new conference?
Yes or No
Comparing PCC and SWC are not exactly the same. SWC broke up and the schools scattered to the wind. PCC broke up and all the bad apples reformed into the same basic conference.
PCC schools - Idaho = whitewashed AAWU
vs
SWC schools
Arkansas = SEC
Texas A&M = SEC via B12
Rice, SMU, and TCU = WAC
Houston = CUSA
Baylor, Texas, and Texas Tech = B12
Death penalty certainly killed SMU, but killing off the SWC and not allowing it to form again is a whole different outcome. If some of the smaller and / or private TX schools had been large public flagship universities there is no doubt they would have followed the PCC model and become SWC II with the same basic schools.
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