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re: A&M - Bama 2012 and JFF vs. the Zone Defense

Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:22 am to
Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:22 am to
quote:

You baited AJ into throwing a tight pass into BOTH the receiver's hands, and he happened to tip it. Remarkable foresight on your D.


It was a "coverage INT." Look, AJ's not stupid--he never would have thrown that pass if he knew the window was that tight. The cover 2 look we gave him pre-snap turned into a cover 3 because that's the way Snyder (A&M's defensive coordinator) designed the play. AJ's pass was directed to a receiver that would have been in the weak spot of the cover 2 look he thought he was getting.

Crazy thing was, he STILL almost completed the pass. He's a great QB. But Matthews blowing up the receiver as the ball arrived triggered the INT.
Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:24 am to
quote:

IMO, a lot of JFF's accuracy, was due to Swope breaking off the routes and giving him a good target to get to. Without Swope, he's 13 of 20 for 142 and 1 TD.


Absolutely. Swope was his security blanket all year long, but especially in the Bama game. Losing him is HUGE. Someone will have to make up for his catches, but more importantly, his toughness. JFF's style of quarterbacking leaves his receivers open for some nasty hits occasionally (just the nature of a scrambling QB). Several of Swope's catches in the Bama and LSU games were very brave, to put it mildly.
Posted by roadGator
Member since Feb 2009
139808 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:26 am to
I don't understand how J Hangover is even as accurate as he is with a ball that flies end over end and sideways.
Posted by tjhilton
Member since Oct 2012
326 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:26 am to
quote:

Defensively, you did NOT make these turnovers happen. Watch the tipped INT - had nothing to do with anything but dropping the pass into a defender. And the fumble was NOT stripped.


Wrong. Our defender pummeled the receiver at the same time the ball got there, and another Ag was there to make the interception - GREAT defense.

The ball WAS stripped on your fumble - very clearly so.

Everett had ANOTHER interception that was called back because his heel landed out of bounds - if he had landed differently, the game would have been a blowout.

Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:27 am to
quote:

OK, pal.


I'm not your pal, guy

quote:


If I had said that A&M suddenly developed a great defense and forced Alabama to drop the ball a lot more than usual, I suppose that would have been more accurate.


A&M took the ball from Bama a lot. It wasn't like y'all were bumbling the ball all over the field. To say otherwise is sour grapes, nothing more.

quote:



If you want to think you got Bama's best shot and came away with the win anyway, go for it.


Don't put words in my mouth. Personally, I don't give a shite if my team gets another team's "best shot." It's football. shite happens, like you said.

All I care about is who is better over the course of the 60 minutes allotted to both teams on the same field. And in '12, that team was A&M in Tuscaloosa.

We'll see who it is in '13.
Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:29 am to
quote:

I don't understand how J Hangover is even as accurate as he is with a ball that flies end over end and sideways.


He has great touch on the ball. He's also a very good basketball player. Touch helps a lot to make those shots where your form and mechanics might be off.
Posted by Spirit Of Aggieland
Houston
Member since Aug 2011
4607 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:29 am to
Passing game adjustments are not the ONLY factors to consider in the A&M offense.

Just as we expect opponents to make adjustments, so will A&M. A&M's run game was too basic in the early part of the season last year. It improved as the season progressed.

Now A&M has a new offensive coordinator, McKinney. McKinney is more focused on running the ball than Kingsbury was. The Cotton Bowl gameplan proved to be a better mix of run/pass. I expect to see new and different running plays this year.
Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:32 am to
The Aggies have one of the most underrated backfields of all the SEC favorites, IMO. If defenses pay as much attention to stopping JFF as I think they will, our ground game could be the most lethal part of our offense.
Posted by madddoggydawg
Metairie
Member since Jun 2013
6567 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:36 am to
quote:

TbirdSpur2010


C'mon dude give someone else a chance.. Yes you beat Bama that we already knew.. The point of this thread was to ask A&M fans if they think JFF can beat the zone and Bama fans if they'll stick to Man even though JFF torched you last year.
Posted by Alahunter
Member since Jan 2008
90738 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:37 am to
quote:

It improved as the season progressed


Agree. Aggies have some talent at the RB position and have for the past few yrs. Will be interesting to see the grunts on the line this year. That and seeing who steps up at WR for yall will be the key this yr.
Posted by Alahunter
Member since Jan 2008
90738 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:38 am to
quote:

JFF torched you last year.


253 yds isn't exactly torching. He made critical first downs though and made the plays when they counted though.
Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:40 am to
quote:


C'mon dude give someone else a chance.


And give up a chance to participate in some actual football discussion during this interminable offseason? No can do, buddy

Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 11:40 am to
quote:


253 yds isn't exactly torching. He made critical first downs though and made the plays when they counted though.


This.
Posted by aggressor
Austin, TX
Member since Sep 2011
8714 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 12:03 pm to
The real key is confusing JFF and getting him to make mistakes. That's getting harder and harder to do though. One thing that seems to be overlooked is that Manziel was a Freshman QB who had only won the starting job a couple weeks before the season started. He had a very limited understanding of the offense and made a lot of plays with his athleticism because of it.

This year he will be running the offense much more as it is meant to be run. The offense is fairly simple, it is designed for there to always be at least 1 mismatch on every play and for the QB to recognize it at the line and attack it. The key with a guy like Manziel is he leaves you with an extra option on every play because of his running ability and thus you will have 2 mismatches (either because of him running or dedicating a defender to stop him running). Knowledge is key in this offense.

The only way to stop the offense really is for A) the QB to make mistakes or B) to have a significant talent advantage. The scheme is less relevant because if the QB recognizes what the defense is doing he will simply adjust. Against UF Manziel didn't even throw deep much less really understand the offense.

Against Ole Miss they did an excellent job of confusing him by making him think he could run when he really couldn't and forced mistakes until late in the game. Against LSU they had the best DL athletes he faced all year and they also did an excellent job of confusing him. By the time he played Bama he was starting to adjust as things were taken away from him. After Bama he really was unstoppable and no one really even challenged him. The question is if he continues on that line of development or not, the odds favor development because of experience.

More than that though, the Bama game is going to come down to the Bama O vs the A&M D even though JFF is getting all the pub.

Posted by TbirdSpur2010
ALAMO CITY
Member since Dec 2010
134026 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 12:07 pm to
quote:

the Bama game is going to come down to the Bama O vs the A&M D even though JFF is getting all the pub.


Yup, been saying this.
Posted by madddoggydawg
Metairie
Member since Jun 2013
6567 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 12:18 pm to
quote:

253 yds isn't exactly torching.

2 TD's, 0 INT's, +92 yds rushing... ok, maybe "burned" would've been more accurate, but, fact remains, if y'all run Man and don't get pressure on him every down this year, JFF's gonna take you to the wire again. It's not a lay-up for Bama just because Saban does well in re-matches.
Posted by madddoggydawg
Metairie
Member since Jun 2013
6567 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 12:28 pm to
quote:

The real key is confusing JFF and getting him to make mistakes. That's getting harder and harder to do though.

quote:

After Bama he really was unstoppable and no one really even challenged him.


These arguments don't address the fact that Bama ran the defense A&M wanted... 4 down-lineman and man coverage. It was not the same D as UF and LSU, although there were similar looks. JFF's didn't throw deep early in the season because it's not the strength of his game. This theory that he had some kind of an epiphany the night before the Bama game and finally understood this brilliant Sumlin offense (y'know, the same one every no-huddle team uses) and never looked back is myth. It's also wishful thinking that JFF develops into some kind of pocket passer this year. He's accurate but his height holds him back in the short passing game and his deep balls get less accurate (that's why A&M wants a one-on-one deep down the middle of the field where the DB doesn't have a chance at an INT). OU let off 50 a lot last year, so I don't think that's a good measuring stick as a program.
Posted by tmc94
Member since Sep 2012
11559 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 1:02 pm to
quote:

The cover 2 look we gave him pre-snap turned into a cover 3 because that's the way Snyder (A&M's defensive coordinator) designed the play. AJ's pass was directed to a receiver that would have been in the weak spot of the cover 2 look he thought he was getting.

actually it's not really cover-3. It was a transition to cover-1 robber out of our base cover-2. This was the first play we had employed it all year but it became a standard part of our defensive package from that point going forward. The essential difference is there is one high safety and one shallow one filling the hole between the linebackers and where you expect the safeties. It was pretty effective against Bama because they like to work the middle and rarely send more than one guy deep. The best way to attack it is deep outs and corner routes but Bama honestly doesn't run a lot of that.

McCarron struggled reading it all game but you could tell he was very flustered immediately after as he never saw it coming on that play. It's fairly likely he had never seen it on tape because I doubt they looked at old Ohio State film on Snyder's defenses there (he used it a lot at OSU).
Posted by aggressor
Austin, TX
Member since Sep 2011
8714 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 1:03 pm to
Actually he started playing better in the State game and carried that over to Bama. He was adjusting and making very few mistakes, hence the lack of turnovers and high completion percentage. Against LSU and UF he was trying to do it all by himself and it burned him. Against Bama he adjusted and started making the throws to the open guy once Bama took away his ability to run.

Sumlin's offense isn't unique, that's true. The key to any HUNH though is having a QB that has it down cold and can call the plays at the line when he sees the mismatch. That's why you often see Sr QB's come in to start in HUNH offenses that aren't particularly talented but put up huge numbers, Nick Florence at Baylor last year was a good example. Johnny wasn't really doing that until late in the season, up until then he was just playing Superman and it cost him several times.

They are also absolutely working on his pocket passing game. He wasn't allowed to run in practice or the Spring game at all, they were forcing him to stay in the pocket. That's all he worked on with George Whitfield as well including drills where they would blindfold him and throw timing patterns to a space. It's not because they aren't going to let Johnny run this season, it's just they want to develop his other skills to be just as deadly.

Johnny's passing ability is very underrated as is his arm strength. He throws the ball with a lot of touch and that sometimes makes his passes look softer but he can muscle it when he needs to. The guy also has huge hands that give him great control over the ball.

I do agree that getting pressure on Johnny by blitzing is the best method against him as is the 3 DL Zone look. That said it leaves other options open when you do that. In spite of losing Swope he will also have better overall talent around him this year than last. Cam Clear at TE and RSJ at WR give him 2 more 6'6+ targets to go with Evans. The Ags have speedsters at WR to burn. Then he has 4 quality RB's all with different styles, all of which can catch the ball. So it really comes down to confusing Johnny and getting him to make the wrong decision on what is the right option on each play.
Posted by tmc94
Member since Sep 2012
11559 posts
Posted on 8/1/13 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

The point of this thread was to ask A&M fans if they think JFF can beat the zone and Bama fans if they'll stick to Man even though JFF torched you last year.

It's really just not a very good premise honestly. The foundation of it assumes the A&M offense was the same game one to game 13. It simply wasn't. Manziel was a freshman who people forget really had his struggles early on in the season. We were forced to punt the first 3 series vs the vaunted SMU defense for instance. His mechanics early on were also a cluster and he was incredibly inconsistent throwing the ball because of it.

Yet you seem determined to get a very simplistic answer to a question that has hundreds of variables. We had a new offense last year. It took everyone a while to adjust. The first few games people wanted to fire our OL coach because our OL was so bad. Seriously. You just can't make these straight line comparisons.

Also, the Air Raid is typically very hard to blitz. The best schemes against it have always been built around getting pressure without blitzing. LSU confused Manziel no doubt. But it doesn't mean that same scheme would have worked 4 weeks later after he'd already seen it and sat in the film room looking at it. Just as I doubt McCarron is confused this year by the robber defense we employed. You can't study these games in a vacuum.
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