re: Will removing all these symbols rectify what caused the SC shooting?

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Well, the underlying problem is hate and hatred for an entire race of people. To many, the flag is a symbol of that same hatred, and it's displayed on the grounds of State House, in the same state where the killing occurred. How can we expect to have an honest discussion about hatred, in a state where the hate-fueled killing occurred, when the state's government still flies a flag of hatred on their grounds? Removing the flag isn't going to fix anything, and I don't think anyone expects it to. But if we're going to move forward as a state, as a country, and face down the issue of hatred that can sometimes manifest into such an tragedy, we must first demand the government that represents us doesn't sanction the flying of a flag that represents that same hatred. I don't see why that is so hard for some people to get.

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Again, do you really think anything will be addressed beyond taking down these items?

I get what they represent to many and as I stated, I am not saying taking them down isn't right. But there is so much focus on those items and hardly any discussion about what leads to the racism and the hatred.

Even in your reply, I didn't see anything except, taking down these things are the first step in reducing hatred. Then nothing else. As if these objects instantly create that hatred.

Perhaps digging deeper should be the focus at this point, and not the window dressing. And that is what seems so hard for some people to get, because it isn't a quick feel good moment or good tv.

It won't be enough. Nothing is ever enough. These symbols will be taken down and then the next campaign dejure will begin. Rights for transgenders. Removing Confederates from street names, parishes, counties, cities, monuments, cemeteries, military bases, and schools. Maybe it will be some kind of paid maternity leave for women. Extra restrictions on colleges to force them to admit more blacks, latinos, and women. Forcing churches to perform gay weddings or else be stripped of their non-prophet status.

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You're changing the culture. Either that's an argument that is going to intuitively resonate w/ you or it's one that I honestly don't have the time or motivation to explain. BTW, you seem very concerned w/ the response of other people to the shooting, but I haven't seen any policy proposals of your own (at least not in the thread).

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And how does it change the culture? How does it prevent the next one from happening? How does it stop the next uneducated kid from blaming his self loathing life on another race?

Again, dig deeper. I have no issue with things being removed from public areas if that's what happens. But do you really think that it won't end there, until the next tragedy?

I'm just tryin to get some discussion going and for folks to think a little deeper. I believe there are deep seated issues that lead to what happened, and many of those are upon the populace because of failed social programs and regulations. Just like the call for gun control, illogical and emotional legislation is passed.. special interests groups are catered to and a perpetually overzealous gov't continues to enslave it's citizens. All of it's citizens.

Personal responsibility is a thing of the past which is why we have much of the present, imo.

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And how does it change the culture? How does it prevent the next one from happening? How does it stop the next uneducated kid from blaming his self loathing life on another race?

Again, dig deeper. I have no issue with things being removed from public areas if that's what happens. But do you really think that it won't end there, until the next tragedy?

I'm just tryin to get some discussion going and for folks to think a little deeper. I believe there are deep seated issues that lead to what happened, and many of those are upon the populace because of failed social programs and regulations. Just like the call for gun control, illogical and emotional legislation is passed.. special interests groups are catered to and a perpetually overzealous gov't continues to enslave it's citizens. All of it's citizens.

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Nobody thinks removing the flag = perfect race relations going forward.

And if you don't see how raising black children in the shadow of the confederate flag flying at the seat of state power in SC could be sending a message that your opinions/feelings/thoughts aren't as valued as white citizens, I don't know what to tell you. That flag reinforces the primacy of whites in this state. I've said before that I don't think anyone should be able to point to the flag and say "that's the reason I grew up to be a felon" or something similar, but it DOES reinforce subtle biases and cues and tacitly approves them. There are a zillion psychological studies that confirm this type of reasoning. I tried comparing it to something that should be universal to most of us Ranters: it's like being at an away game every day of your life. You're intensely aware of your otherness.

And let's just reflect for a moment that SC is a top 5 state for black population by percentage and they are vehemently opposed to flying that flag. Even if you don't believe a word a/b the psychological aspect, there isn't any reason not to simply honor the feelings of 30% of your population, unless you have similarly emotional feelings on the opposite end of the spectrum (and if you do, be prepared to defend those...).

Id like to see all flags removed, all statues removed. I want just square concrete buildings. I wouldn't want anyone offended by anything.

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Id like to see all flags removed, all statues removed. I want just square concrete buildings. I wouldn't want anyone offended by anything.

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Keep voting Republican. Eventually we might even slash taxes enough to not even be able to afford the concrete.

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I'm conservative by nature, but not into the R's as they are today and not loyal to their party anymore. As a conservative, let me list you my 4 conservative answers to the 4 issues you listed...

1. race relations - personal accountability and self reliance
2. prescription drugs - political and pharmaceutical reforms and less gov't subsidizing
3. parenting - return to a nuclear family as much as possible and stop the glorification and rewarding of single parents and having children out of wedlock.
4. income inequality - will always be, because some work harder, some work smarter and some are lazier. You're only guaranteed the pursuit of happiness. Nobody is guaranteed to achieve it. That is on each individual.

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Please do not view this as a slight, but i'm liberal by nature (has nothing to do with being black, I just grew up in the great liberal bastion which is Maryland...mandatory recycling in schools beginning in 1990, etc). I would like to list my 4 liberal answers to the listed issues:

1) Race Relations - No entity will ever legislate better race relations. How a person views his/her fellow man is personal. The majority of my clients at work are white and they are visibly disturbed when they learn that I have been assigned to their case. On the other hand, many of my black friends are often indignant because I attend a majority white Episcopal Church in downtown Atlanta. Thee is nothing I can do about those folks' feelings, so I don't worry about it. I am simply kind and courteous to people regardless of race. That's a good way to deal with race relations.

2)Prescription Drugs - are dangerous. Much more regulation on the distribution of these and legalize pot. Prescription drugs are more addictive than pot and usually lead to heroine abuse and death.

3)Parenting - I was raised in a single parent household because at some point my parents decided that they hated each other and divorced. I'm still a Georgia Law (who entered with a damn good LSAT score and GPA, so don't go there). Simply stating that a return to a traditional nuclear family will solve the country's problems is short sighted and stupid. I represented a daddy who raped and ultimately killed his young daughter while momma was in the bedroom (they were white). So, save the sanctimonious two parent m/f bullshite. Children need love and security.

4) Income Inequality - will always be with us, not because people are lazy, but because of industry demands. Someone has to work at Einstein's Bagels. I just believe that the person who prepares my sandwich in the morning should earn a livable wage. We can debate that is.

-ML

4)

Since all of these shooters have been heavily dosed with psychotropic drugs, you'd think the conversation would start there.

Stricter gun laws will go a much longer way than stricter flag laws.

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Income Inequality - will always be with us, not because people are lazy, but because of industry demands. Someone has to work at Einstein's Bagels. I just believe that the person who prepares my sandwich in the morning should earn a livable wage. We can debate that is.

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There's not much that can be done about income inequality at the current time.

There's no putting the globalization genie back in the bottle. Cheap labor in the developing world (among other things) has gutted American manufacturing. Thus we become a service based economy with less lucrative jobs for the traditional blue collar folks. We all know the story.

While this has happen, investment and returns overseas have fueled greater gains for those with the money to invest. This is where we get stuck. Some believe they should pay more to help their fellow countrymen, while others see that as punishing success. Here the wheels spin, focused domestically when the international story is what matters.

Investment overseas and the transport of jobs there has help foster explosive middle class growth in developing economies. That's what the American economy needs, more consumers overseas to drive demand for better and more efficient goods. Western consumers can't keep their rate of spending up, as evidence by the debt bomb a few years back. We need the Chinese. We need the Indians. We need the Vietnamese.

As America focuses on improvement in manufacturing processes, we'll be well positioned to take advantage of the growing global consumer class. We're just at the start of a great transition in the global market. Income inequality is just part of the growing pains.

The best way to fight inequality is to embrace the new economic reality. Free trade policies. Slashing regulation on small businesses and start ups. Make education a focus, specifically in the arena of computing and technology. Run with globalization, not away from it.