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re: UPDATE: New Orleans City Council votes to remove Confederate monuments
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:01 am to greenbastard
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:01 am to greenbastard
Those "racist" A&M traditions, doe 
1
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:10 am to TbirdSpur2010
Don't know about racist, but militaristic threatening could be one
Did I do it right?
All this was for because the rich boys wanted to pet the post hole diggers lassie
The sad part is the SMU cheerleader hit harder than the SMU secondary this year, sign em up!!!
Pony UP!!
This post was edited on 12/18/15 at 10:12 am
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:16 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
The reason this is a discussion regarding black people is because that's the minority most affected by the confederate cause
Honest question Tbird: is it offensive because black people were the most affected or because some may feel that they're still affected by it?
Forewarning: I am in no way supporting racism or slavery.
I just don't get the big deal. These statues have been up for over 100 years or more. It's not like they were erected a decade or two ago by some racist redneck. They were erected by people or clubs (like Daughters of the Confederacy) who wanted to honor those who died in the war. They're no different than the Gettysburg Battlefield Museum, but I don't hear people screaming for its removal.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:17 am to sms151t
quote:
Don't know about racist, but militaristic threatening could be one
Granted
My dad knew that Corps guy. He said he was always a fricking idiot
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:24 am to TbirdSpur2010
There are some Aggies that defend him saying the Sabre was capped etc.
Okay I get it, protect Lassie and all, but pulling the Sabre is a lil much. That right there is perfect example why they're called the HYC at times.
I have no issue with the aTm traditions because they are theirs and theirs alone. But for people looking from the outside and they see that kind of stuff, that borders on insanity.
How does this relate to topic....
A vocal minority is influencing perceptions of those outside. Which is exactly what happened with these statues. Nobody said jack about them until a few years ago. My biggest issue was there was no representative vote, just a vote of council members said to represent the whole. But lets be honest, I am 85.78% sure that most do not want the statues gone.
Also it leads into censoring of art. While some find pornography offensive, some do not. While some find the bible offensive, some do not. What is the next step? I just think the road this has taken is a dangerous one and one that needs to be traveled very carefully.
Okay I get it, protect Lassie and all, but pulling the Sabre is a lil much. That right there is perfect example why they're called the HYC at times.
I have no issue with the aTm traditions because they are theirs and theirs alone. But for people looking from the outside and they see that kind of stuff, that borders on insanity.
How does this relate to topic....
A vocal minority is influencing perceptions of those outside. Which is exactly what happened with these statues. Nobody said jack about them until a few years ago. My biggest issue was there was no representative vote, just a vote of council members said to represent the whole. But lets be honest, I am 85.78% sure that most do not want the statues gone.
Also it leads into censoring of art. While some find pornography offensive, some do not. While some find the bible offensive, some do not. What is the next step? I just think the road this has taken is a dangerous one and one that needs to be traveled very carefully.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:24 am to AUnite
quote:
AUnite
Good to see ya!!!
Hope life's good, ma'am quote:
Honest question Tbird: is it offensive because black people were the most affected or because some may feel that they're still affected by it?
First off, all black people don't think the same. There's no Aggie-like hive mind for the black community (or maybe there is, but they still haven't added me to the listserv
), but from my experience, it's a little of both. quote:
These statues have been up for over 100 years or more. It's not like they were erected a decade or two ago by some racist redneck. They were erected by people or clubs (like Daughters of the Confederacy) who wanted to honor those who died in the war.
When the statues/monuments were first erected, what black person would dare speak against them? They were erected during a time when looking askance at such would be grounds for lynching. The fact that they've been up for so long has little to do with it. Black people who were uncomfortable with what those monuments represent have basically had to shut up and deal with it until the past few decades.
They were erected by those who wanted to honor those who died for an unjust cause.
quote:
They're no different than the Gettysburg Battlefield Museum, but I don't hear people screaming for its removal.
Museum contexts are quite different (and I have no problem with them, as I stated earlier in this thread). Plus, Gettysburg was a landmark battle in that war, and was important (and bloody) for both sides.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:31 am to sms151t
quote:
That right there is perfect example why they're called the HYC at times.
Calling folks who are a part of the organization that produced more officers in WWII to fight the Nazis "Hitler Youth Corps" is about as low as you can get, no matter how you spin it.
But we've had that discussion.
quote:
Nobody said jack about them until a few years ago.
Maybe not (some) white people. Very few black people I know are cool with confederate monuments. My wife and her folks (who you know are Caucasian) aren't cool with them being up. The fact that they've been there since postwar days is not a suitable defense when we all know the racial tensions of the era when they were erected.
quote:
Also it leads into censoring of art. While some find pornography offensive, some do not. While some find the bible offensive, some do not.
The bible is not art.
Art in a museum context is quite different than state condoned memorials to individuals who fought to rend the nation asunder in the name of oppression of a race of people.
quote:
I just think the road this has taken is a dangerous one and one that needs to be traveled very carefully.
I agree that it's a road that needs to be carefully navigated, but I disagree that it's dangerous.
This post was edited on 12/18/15 at 10:32 am
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:33 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
They were erected by those who wanted to honor those who died for an unjust cause
Why is it an unjust cause?
Because you define it as so? So a man who decides to fight to protect his way of living and his property is unjust based on your personal perceptions? To you what is unjust is not really unjust. To make that statement is being simplistic and somewhat self centered.
Was your branch of the military unjust for sending bombers to Iraq in 2003 to wipe out communications and electrical supplies?
It is a dangerous road to make a blanket statement about a war and the men fighting in the war.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:37 am to sms151t
quote:
Why is it an unjust cause?
Because you define it as so? So a man who decides to fight to protect his way of living and his property is unjust based on your personal perceptions? To you what is unjust is not really unjust. To make that statement is being simplistic and somewhat self centered.
Attempting to overthrow the United States in the name of this:
quote:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. "
is not just.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:38 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Art in a museum context is quite different than state condoned memorials to individuals who fought to rend the nation asunder in the name of oppression of a race of people
Again we are going to argue this in very complex terms and broadening the views, which has to be done, because of the multiple loopholes and views that are being used on this subject.
What is art to you is not art to everyone else. A book, a statue, a drawing, a painting is art of some sort, in its purest definition. Is Graffiti art? to some it is, to some it is a bunch of defamatory use of paint.
I just think we need to look at all options and get everyone's voices heard before making judgments, not just a vocal minority or simple group of people.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:43 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Tbird
good to see you as well! Life is very good, and I hope Mrs. Tbird gets back to Texas with you soon! Bow chick a wow
quote:
First off, all black people don't think the same. There's no Aggie-like hive mind for the black community (or maybe there is, but they still haven't added me to the listserv), but from my experience, it's a little of both.
maybe they'll put your name on the list soon and include you. quote:
When the statues/monuments were first erected, what black person would dare speak against them? They were erected during a time when looking askance at such would be grounds for lynching. The fact that they've been up for so long has little to do with it. Black people who were uncomfortable with what those monuments represent have basically had to shut up and deal with it until the past few decades.
They were erected by those who wanted to honor those who died for an unjust cause.
I do agree that at that point in time, those who objected, wouldn't have said anything.
While I do agree that they were erected for people who died for an unjust cause, the fact still remains that they died during an American War. Confederate soldiers are buried at Arlington, and other Military Cemeteries across the nation.
quote:
Museum contexts are quite different (and I have no problem with them, as I stated earlier in this thread). Plus, Gettysburg was a landmark battle in that war, and was important (and bloody) for both sides.
It's a museum, but there are statutes out in the field. The fact remains that the museum and battlefield represent a horrible part of our history, but no one seems to demand its removal.
It just seems to me that people are just now pissed off about these statutes. For example, here in Birmingham, we have a statute in Lynn Park that was erected by the Daughters of the Confederacy. After the shooting in South Carolina, the Birmingham City Council voted to remove it. The majority of the City council is black, and the mayor is black. It's had this makeup for the last couple of decades, yet it took a racist redneck's shooting to make them see it as offensive? It's right across the street from city hall where the council meets. If they'd truly seen it as offensive, why didn't they vote to remove it years ago? Anyhoo, just my two cents.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:47 am to TbirdSpur2010
It is not just to you, but it was to the people who founded and enacted it.
So do we condemn all those who held slaves?
Then we would need to condemn the Romans, the Greeks, The Persians, the Japanese, the Egyptian Pharaohs, multiple Presidents of the United States, the Puritans, etc.
My issue with the removal is it was not voted on. Let their be a representative vote. If it gets passed then take them down. But they are not going anywhere as I believe they are Historical Markers.
So do we condemn all those who held slaves?
Then we would need to condemn the Romans, the Greeks, The Persians, the Japanese, the Egyptian Pharaohs, multiple Presidents of the United States, the Puritans, etc.
My issue with the removal is it was not voted on. Let their be a representative vote. If it gets passed then take them down. But they are not going anywhere as I believe they are Historical Markers.
This post was edited on 12/18/15 at 10:49 am
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:50 am to AUnite
quote:
It just seems to me that people are just now pissed off about these statutes. For example, here in Birmingham, we have a statute in Lynn Park that was erected by the Daughters of the Confederacy. After the shooting in South Carolina, the Birmingham City Council voted to remove it. The majority of the City council is black, and the mayor is black. It's had this makeup for the last couple of decades, yet it took a racist redneck's shooting to make them see it as offensive? It's right across the street from city hall where the council meets. If they'd truly seen it as offensive, why didn't they vote to remove it years ago? Anyhoo, just my two cents.
People have had issue with these monuments for a long time, not just now. Having an issue with something and having the political capital to do something about it are two different things, though. Folks who think that it's a problem just now haven't been paying enough attention over the years, IMO. It's not something that happened all of a sudden--it's something people have had an issue with for awhile now and in light of that tragic event, saw a need to finally take a stand.
quote:
It's a museum, but there are statutes out in the field. The fact remains that the museum and battlefield represent a horrible part of our history, but no one seems to demand its removal.
Again, the whole thing is museum setting. It was a watershed moment for both sides, not just a celebration of the confederacy.
quote:
maybe they'll put your name on the list soon and include you.
It's probably just full of a bunch of forwards from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson like they're annoying grandparents or something. I'll pass
quote:
Life is very good, and I hope Mrs. Tbird gets back to Texas with you soon!
Bow chick a wow
Going up to spend Christmas with her next week in Missouri!!! Can't wait till she moves down here for good in March.
Glad you're doing well! Any Christmas plans you're looking forward to?
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:53 am to sms151t
quote:
It is not just to you, but it was to the people who founded and enacted it.
That is quite irrelevant.
quote:
So do we condemn all those who held slaves?
No, I said rending OUR nation asunder over that issue as outlined by the confederates themselves is indeed condemnable.
quote:
My issue with the removal is it was not voted on. Let their be a representative vote.
Throw 'em in a museum and be done with it. Plenty of room for historical preservation in there. Move on and celebrate what unifies people in the South.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:56 am to TbirdSpur2010
Again, I hate arguing politics and being the guy that brings up opposite sides to whatever you think. I am just trying, not very well either, to show the opposite argument.
So should we take down all the General Custer monuments? What about Gen St. Clair? Should we take down all the General Jackson monuments? As they caused more death and destruction to a segment of a population than slavery did. That population was forcibly removed from their home and given disease and was basically in the process of being exterminated, if they had not submitted.
So should we take down all the General Custer monuments? What about Gen St. Clair? Should we take down all the General Jackson monuments? As they caused more death and destruction to a segment of a population than slavery did. That population was forcibly removed from their home and given disease and was basically in the process of being exterminated, if they had not submitted.
This post was edited on 12/18/15 at 11:00 am
Posted on 12/18/15 at 10:57 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
People have had issue with these monuments for a long time, not just now. Having an issue with something and having the political capital to do something about it are two different things, though. Folks who think that it's a problem just now haven't been paying enough attention over the years, IMO. It's not something that happened all of a sudden--it's something people have had an issue with for awhile now and in light of that tragic event, saw a need to finally take a stand.
We'll agree to disagree
I just think that if was truly that big of a deal, they would've done something about it years ago. The City of Birmingham has no problem taking a stand when they feel it's justified. quote:
Glad you're doing well! Any Christmas plans you're looking forward to?
I'm actually headed up to Missouri myself on Christmas Day
The fiancé is from St. Louis, but most of his family lives in Cape.Posted on 12/18/15 at 11:00 am to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Throw 'em in a museum and be done with it. Plenty of room for historical preservation in there.
That's if they survive removal. I'm sure it would cost a shitton of money to have them removed the correct way, and I know some cities won't give a shite.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 11:04 am to sms151t
quote:
So should we take down all the General Custer monuments? What about Gen St. Clair? Should we take down all the General Jackson monuments? As they caused more death and destruction to a segment of a population than slavery did.
Wouldn't bother me a whit to see 'em taken down, tbh.
Native Americans got shite on terribly, and we still don't give them their proper consideration. We agree there.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 11:04 am to AUnite
The Cape? Yikes!!! I am not a fan of the Cape, but that has to do with where I worked and went to school though.
Posted on 12/18/15 at 11:07 am to sms151t
quote:
sms
Eh, it's not that bad IMO. I'll admit that I like St. Louis better
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