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re: Judge rules against opponents of removing Confederate memorials ...
Posted on 2/7/16 at 10:42 pm to scrooster
Posted on 2/7/16 at 10:42 pm to scrooster
quote:
scrooster
I do want to ask. What was/is your opinion on SC removing the flag from the courthouse. Removing the statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, and or his grave from the park in Memphis. And isn't KY now removing the statue of Davis from their state capital?
I for one have no problem with any of that, except removing the grave.
I am absolutely in favor of keeping the monuments here, Richmond, and elsewhere. But Forrest ruined his name with KKK, and I am fine with removing Confederate symbols from government buildings, and such.
I also don't really have a problem with removing the Monument of Liberty Place. I only support it staying, due to the slippery slope it involves with all other historical monuments, and names around the city.
They want to remove a monument for the hero of The Battle of New Orleans, and a US President, along with the monument for the founder of our great city.
Eta: In no way should any grave be moved, or disturbed.
This post was edited on 2/7/16 at 10:44 pm
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Posted on 2/7/16 at 10:54 pm to Tiger Live2
quote:
But Forrest ruined his name with KKK
Nathan Bedford Forrest, in 1875.
quote:
“Ladies and Gentlemen, I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the Southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God’s earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. (Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man, to depress none.
History is complicated.
This post was edited on 2/7/16 at 10:55 pm
Posted on 2/7/16 at 11:01 pm to scrooster
I'm going to chime in my opinion on this long but at least interesting thread. Minus the obvious one liner trolls, it has given good insight into some of the minds that post regularly on the board.
America. The country itself was founded in equal parts by greed, persecution, hypocrisy, and bigotry.
The puritans came over to escape religious persecution and in doing so began persecuting the natives in the exact same ways in which they were trying to escape.The conquistadors came in search of riches and notoriety within their country. The settlers from all around the world showed up to the new honeycomb hideout and claimed it for themselves, while subjugating the established inhabitants as primitives, cavemen, etc.. Then came the wars, the commerce, more subjugation and razing of African people, slaughter and razing of the natives, indentured servitude of cultures not english or spanish.
This country is built upon a foundation of bad shite with the lip service to have a better life if you can make it. Our country and society is still globally new and we as a society are still trying to overcome our sordid past. Corruption is just as prevalent now as it was when the first drops of ink hit our constitution. I am not a America hater nor am I a hater of my heritage or my countries history. Our past belongs in museums (all past, not just civil war) because I am a firm believer in lessons that history teaches.
I support honoring the fallen of our conflicts because they and their families paid the price for someone else's decisions. I support making historic sites "untouchable" as they serve as a way to physically go see and stand in a place that has been significant to our countries history. (the Alamo, Fort Sumter, Fort Moultrie etc..)
The confederate battleflag does belong on any modern government building no more than a velvet painting of Andrew Jackson belongs on a casino wall owned by Native Americans. We can honor our past and learn from it without desecrating them or putting them up in the center of the city. Our past cannot be erased but we also cant let it write our future because we have not learned from it.
Religion does not have to be the forefront of everything, most religions carry more or less the same message, that ironically, most people never seem to get because they are too busy with the "my god can beat your god argument"
"Treat others well, be a good person, and contribute to the growth of yourself and everyone around you."
If we as a people, species, whatever, can learn to do this... then the atrocities of our past will never show up again in our future.
Everything outside of that is just polarizing bullshite. Right or wrong are really just a matter of perception from your side of the fence.
America. The country itself was founded in equal parts by greed, persecution, hypocrisy, and bigotry.
The puritans came over to escape religious persecution and in doing so began persecuting the natives in the exact same ways in which they were trying to escape.The conquistadors came in search of riches and notoriety within their country. The settlers from all around the world showed up to the new honeycomb hideout and claimed it for themselves, while subjugating the established inhabitants as primitives, cavemen, etc.. Then came the wars, the commerce, more subjugation and razing of African people, slaughter and razing of the natives, indentured servitude of cultures not english or spanish.
This country is built upon a foundation of bad shite with the lip service to have a better life if you can make it. Our country and society is still globally new and we as a society are still trying to overcome our sordid past. Corruption is just as prevalent now as it was when the first drops of ink hit our constitution. I am not a America hater nor am I a hater of my heritage or my countries history. Our past belongs in museums (all past, not just civil war) because I am a firm believer in lessons that history teaches.
I support honoring the fallen of our conflicts because they and their families paid the price for someone else's decisions. I support making historic sites "untouchable" as they serve as a way to physically go see and stand in a place that has been significant to our countries history. (the Alamo, Fort Sumter, Fort Moultrie etc..)
The confederate battleflag does belong on any modern government building no more than a velvet painting of Andrew Jackson belongs on a casino wall owned by Native Americans. We can honor our past and learn from it without desecrating them or putting them up in the center of the city. Our past cannot be erased but we also cant let it write our future because we have not learned from it.
Religion does not have to be the forefront of everything, most religions carry more or less the same message, that ironically, most people never seem to get because they are too busy with the "my god can beat your god argument"
"Treat others well, be a good person, and contribute to the growth of yourself and everyone around you."
If we as a people, species, whatever, can learn to do this... then the atrocities of our past will never show up again in our future.
Everything outside of that is just polarizing bullshite. Right or wrong are really just a matter of perception from your side of the fence.
Posted on 2/7/16 at 11:06 pm to Lima Whiskey
quote:
History is complicated.
Yes it is, but even if wahat the KKK turned into, was not what he wanted, he still started it. Same as the founder of the Black Panthers. Both are hate groups now. Their legacies are tarnished. For better, or for worse
Posted on 2/7/16 at 11:12 pm to Mr.Sinister
quote:
Mr.Sinister
Well said. Our history is far from perfect, but let's not destroy it, but learn from it.
"Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it."
Posted on 2/8/16 at 12:56 am to Tiger Live2
quote:
How many Texans would fight against TX?
I sure would if Texas were to become a racist state with laws that allowed the Slavery of African-Texans (Not African-American, but African-Texan...Because Texas!
). Of course that would never happen today (I hope). Texans fighting against their own is not really unheard of. It wasn't only gringos fighting against Santa Ana during the Texas Revolution. There were many Mexicans (also known as Tejanos) who stood up against their own home country and fought for independence. National pride was for Mexicans to what state pride was for Virginians and South Carolinians back in the day. What those Tejanos did was unforgivable in the eyes of many Mexicans and many still view Tejanos as traitors til this very day. Those Tejanos did what they thought was right, even if it meant alienating themselves from family in Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas.
Fun Fact: One of Mexico's favorite generals was a Tejano. His family moved to Tamaulipas when he was a child right before the Texas Revolution started. He went on to win the infamous battle known today as 'Cinco De Mayo'. It's part of the reason why Cinco De Mayo, along with many other meaningful Mexican dates, is celebrated in Texas among Tejanos.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 1:57 am to greenbastard
quote:
Texans fighting against their own is not really unheard of. It wasn't only gringos fighting against Santa Ana during the Texas Revolution.
That is Texans, fighting for Texas. Not fighting against.
And I call bullshite, that you would fight, against your home.
I would NEVER fight against LA, or for that matter TN, or VA.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 7:13 am to Tiger Live2
I'm not trying to bring this back to the Civil War, because as yall have said that situation was complicated in a lot of ways for your average joe southerner.
But to say this is absurd
There's not a single scenario where you would pick up arms against Louisiana?
But to say this is absurd
quote:
I would NEVER fight against LA, or for that matter TN, or VA.
There's not a single scenario where you would pick up arms against Louisiana?
Posted on 2/8/16 at 7:24 am to Tiger Live2
quote:
Their legacies are tarnished. For better, or for worse
That's fair.
quote:
Well said. Our history is far from perfect, but let's not destroy it, but learn from it.
"Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it."
Well history is also "a pack of lies, written by people who weren't there, about things that never happened."
Posted on 2/8/16 at 7:28 am to greenbastard
quote:
Not African-American, but African-Texan...Because Texas!
Hallelujah
But, to answer the original question, absolutely I'd take up arms against the state under those dire circumstances. Either that or abstain completely. Home is where I lay my head at night. Of course I hope that's Texas, but if things deteriorated to the point that a conflict of that nature were even a possibility, I'm not sure this would be the best place to call home anyways.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 8:18 am to Mullet Flap
quote:
Confederate veterans? What about the fact that they were veterans makes them any less of an enemy?
What he's talking about is that federal law recognizes Confederate veterans as US veterans.
They're eligible for burial in national cemeteries. Their spouses and children are (believe it or not, there are a handful of children still around) eligible for a federal pension.
The people of that era understood the war and the need for reconciliation in a way that's lost on a lot of the people today. I've already said it in this thread, but to be clear I don't have a problem with moving memorials to museums and renaming streets to what they were pre-war. My only issues are with those wanting to destroy them and now with the retroactive application of labels as you've done.
Many of those Confederate veterans went on to serve again in the US military - particularly out west. IIRC, there were a handful that died with Custer at Little Big Horn.
Joseph Wheeler commanded the cavalry contingent of the CSA's Army of Tennessee (fighting Sherman all the way through Georgia) during the civil war and then was a Major General over US cavalry and second in command of V Corps during the US invasion of Cuba during the Spanish American war. He is buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
As someone else said, history is complicated.
This post was edited on 2/8/16 at 8:23 am
Posted on 2/8/16 at 10:08 am to JustGetItRight
quote:
What he's talking about is that federal law recognizes Confederate veterans as US veterans.
No, I wasn't talking of that. All 3 actually fought for the US Army, before the Civil War.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 10:10 am to Dawg in Beaumont
quote:
There's not a single scenario where you would pick up arms against Louisiana?
No, I won't take up arms, against my home.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 10:34 am to Tiger Live2
So if Hitler comes back from the dead and exterminates your entire family and your entire religious community then proceeds to systematically torture and kill the people of Louisiana that question this practice.
All that is left in Louisiana is the folks that advocated for his actions, and the neighboring states declare war against this small insane tribe that encompasses all of Louisiana now.
You wouldn't take up arms?
Its an absurd scenario I admit, but its a way to illustrate the even greater absurdity of saying "I would never take up arms against STATE NAME"
All that is left in Louisiana is the folks that advocated for his actions, and the neighboring states declare war against this small insane tribe that encompasses all of Louisiana now.
You wouldn't take up arms?
Its an absurd scenario I admit, but its a way to illustrate the even greater absurdity of saying "I would never take up arms against STATE NAME"
Posted on 2/8/16 at 10:47 am to Dawg in Beaumont
quote:
Its an absurd scenario I admit
Posted on 2/8/16 at 11:20 am to Tiger Live2
When you say things like this:
"I would NEVER fight against LA, or for that matter TN, or VA."
You open yourself up to getting intellectually boxed in by absurd scenarios. That's my only point.
"I would NEVER fight against LA, or for that matter TN, or VA."
You open yourself up to getting intellectually boxed in by absurd scenarios. That's my only point.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 11:43 am to Tiger Live2
quote:
That is Texans, fighting for Texas. Not fighting against.
And I call bullshite, that you would fight, against your home.
I would NEVER fight against LA, or for that matter TN, or VA.
You missed the point. For Mexicans, fighting against Mexico was the ultimate sin. Mexicans didn't have a strong connection or bond to states like the U.S. did. They had a centralist government and states were only there as a form of regional representation. To them, it was being Mexican over being a Yucateco, Tejano, or Chihuahuense.
So for a Mexican to stand up against Mexico would be the same thing as a Mississippian or Virginian fighting against their own state.
Posted on 2/8/16 at 12:07 pm to greenbastard
They remembered Goliad and the Alamo, too.
Mi gente
Mi gente
Posted on 2/8/16 at 12:24 pm to Tiger Live2
quote:
Well said. Our history is far from perfect, but let's not destroy it, but learn from it.
"Those who forget history, are doomed to repeat it."
I still fail to see how any of this takes away from the fact that the soldiers that people glorify in the form of a statue were traitors and fought AGAINST what the United States stands for
Posted on 2/8/16 at 12:26 pm to Tiger Live2
quote:
No, I wasn't talking of that. All 3 actually fought for the US Army, before the Civil War.
And what side they fought for in the civil war makes them traitors, not heroes.
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