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re: It's way past time to overhaul our education system
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:12 am to hogfly
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:12 am to hogfly
quote:
I think a lot of parents think "why learn to work it 3 different ways, when 1 will suffice." But it's to help build conceptual understanding.
I don't have a problem building conceptual understanding. But facts have to precede the conceptual. And when 30% of your kids are at grade level proficiency in math, they need less conceptual and more facts.
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Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:15 am to hogfly
quote:This sounds like something I would support. I believe in showing many different methods and letting the kid solve however best works for them. This requires great teachers though because if a teacher only knows how to teach one way then its going to be a struggle getting kids to understand the other ways.
In Singapore Math, for example (which is pretty much what they use at my kid's school), you learn to work a problem 3 different ways. I think a lot of parents think "why learn to work it 3 different ways, when 1 will suffice." But it's to help build conceptual understanding.
I have noticed this as a major problem with why American students struggle with math. The majority of math teachers i have seen struggle when slowing down their process or working it in ways they aren't use to working it. It becomes a jumbled mess of frustration and the question goes unanswered.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:16 am to heartbreakTiger
quote:
I would guess the best way would be a kid that is failing to under stand is held out from recess or something.
My wife uses creative scheduling, pull-outs, interventions and data analysis. She's pretty damn good at it. She has 80% free/reduced lunch population and her school is doing things the teachers said were impossible 5 years ago. She has good teachers, but she made some teachers uncomfortable enough for them to move on. And once you see success, you get buy-in at a staff level and it can change the whole climate of a building.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:23 am to The Spleen
quote:
Education is a triangle where all three points have to work together to succeed. The points are the school/teacher, the student, and the parents/guardians. When one of those points is lacking, the odds are already against the success of that student. When all 3 are present and working together, success follows.
Totally agree. It's on all three parties, especially the older the student gets. Granted, the student's drive and desire to learn and succeed largely comes from the parent, but they have to be held accountable as well as they progress through their school careers.
To put it in perspective, it's sort of like the triangle that facilitates success in college football (and generally all athletics) -- you have to have good coaching, good recruiting, and good fan support to be a successful program. If one of those three falls off, one or both of the remaining two will suffer.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:24 am to the808bass
I have heard of some other options such as giving class free time to work on problems and that time could be used to help those that are behind.
East Baton Rouge Parish schools have tinkered in it, but they haven't done a good job explaining how it should work to the teachers. I'm afraid a good idea is going to go down the tube here because of poor implementation. My friends grandmother is a teacher and I've had to spend a lot of time trying to decipher what exactly the school board is asking her to do as far as gathering data and using that data.
Has she been able to track a change in parent participation? I would wonder if the parent problem starts to solve its' self when their child is seeing success in the classroom.
In a lot of areas I hold the belief of telling those that need help how they are going to be helped and then proving it to them. Once it is proven to work I believe they start to buy in to the system.
quote:I'm glad to see schools using data analysis in the correct way.
My wife uses creative scheduling, pull-outs, interventions and data analysis. She's pretty damn good at it. She has 80% free/reduced lunch population and her school is doing things the teachers said were impossible 5 years ago. She has good teachers, but she made some teachers uncomfortable enough for them to move on. And once you see success, you get buy-in at a staff level and it can change the whole climate of a building.
East Baton Rouge Parish schools have tinkered in it, but they haven't done a good job explaining how it should work to the teachers. I'm afraid a good idea is going to go down the tube here because of poor implementation. My friends grandmother is a teacher and I've had to spend a lot of time trying to decipher what exactly the school board is asking her to do as far as gathering data and using that data.
Has she been able to track a change in parent participation? I would wonder if the parent problem starts to solve its' self when their child is seeing success in the classroom.
In a lot of areas I hold the belief of telling those that need help how they are going to be helped and then proving it to them. Once it is proven to work I believe they start to buy in to the system.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:33 am to heartbreakTiger
quote:
In a lot of areas I hold the belief of telling those that need help how they are going to be helped and then proving it to them. Once it is proven to work I believe they start to buy in to the system.
Parent involvement doesn't have to be all that active. Passive parent involvement is a good start.
And I agree. Success breeds success.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:41 am to the808bass
3 things that bother me:
--teachers are horribly underpaid.
--I'm a republican, but NCLB enacted by Bush was terrible. It enacted a lot of controversial/unfair policies that affected different schools in different ways. Not a coincidence everyone hated it, and I'm glad it's being phased the frick out. Common Core is a little better but like it's been mentioned, teaching to/for a test and cutting out a lot of other curriculum as a result just looks like kids are missing out on so much more...Just bothers me. Some of the material in certain subjects are absurd too, but some of it has been good as well.
--education is a mess. Too much meddling by the federal and state gov't to agree on certain parameters. Every state has different rules, different schedules, and its just seems like it's all ballooned into a over-complicated pile of dogshit that no one is going to able to fix.
*sigh*
--teachers are horribly underpaid.
--I'm a republican, but NCLB enacted by Bush was terrible. It enacted a lot of controversial/unfair policies that affected different schools in different ways. Not a coincidence everyone hated it, and I'm glad it's being phased the frick out. Common Core is a little better but like it's been mentioned, teaching to/for a test and cutting out a lot of other curriculum as a result just looks like kids are missing out on so much more...Just bothers me. Some of the material in certain subjects are absurd too, but some of it has been good as well.
--education is a mess. Too much meddling by the federal and state gov't to agree on certain parameters. Every state has different rules, different schedules, and its just seems like it's all ballooned into a over-complicated pile of dogshit that no one is going to able to fix.
*sigh*
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:48 am to dead money
quote:
--teachers are horribly underpaid.
Disagree.
A teacher with 20 years experience and a Master's degree will make $80k+ here in suburban STL. Not bad for a 9-month job (to say nothing of one of the best retirement systems around). This isn't universal, but as this shows, neither is bad teacher pay.
A problem is that many good teachers will leave the system early on because pay is tied completely to longevity.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 9:54 am to the808bass
Teacher pay depends greatly on the state. I can't say whether they are underpaid here in Alabama, but they haven't gotten a raise in 4 or 5 years, and actually got a pay cut a couple of years ago when they restructured their retirement plan. They're a favorite whipping boy of the Republicans in this state, which is somewhat understandable as the teacher's union(AEA) pretty much controlled state politics for years through the Democratic party.
I think with a Master's the median is around $50k, which is decent money in Alabama. The benefits are pretty top notch though.
I think with a Master's the median is around $50k, which is decent money in Alabama. The benefits are pretty top notch though.
This post was edited on 10/1/14 at 9:55 am
Posted on 10/1/14 at 10:04 am to KSGamecock
quote:
There's nothing wrong with our public education system, it's perfectly good, the problem is with students and parents. You get what you put in to public education. If parents want their children to read then they'll emphasize that in the home and the kids will carry that into the classroom, if not then they'll grow up to be functionally illiterate. I'm perfectly fine with that being how it is, we need fry cooks and garbage men and if they want to self select more power to them.
+1000
People that blame the education system are the ones that have never really seen it up close. No offense to the OP, but your post comes across as pretentious as frick. No, not everyone can afford a "good" education for their kids. That's kind of the point. The impoverished families, usually single parent home, can't afford much of anything. Not only that, the things they do buy with their money aren't exactly tools their children can use to better themselves. Granted, there are exceptions, but for the most part, these kids coming out of shitty situations really just don't give a shite because no one around them does either.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 10:55 am to BillyBobPorkin
It truly starts in the home. Anyone who says it doesn't has probably not stepped foot in a classroom in several years or at all. Especially in a high-poverty, low-performing area/school. But it certainly doesn't stop there. Working in a major school district a lot of that educational money doesn't funnel down to the school level as it should. A lot of it gets caught up at the board level.
At the same time, you need good administrators who aren't afraid to get rid of bad teachers (and as much as people bitch about unions it can be done with a good admin staff to evaluate and document). And there needs to be more parental responsibility.
We just had a school shooting in my district yesterday. The parent of the 16 year old arrested is already blaming "the system". It's time someone stood up and said "No YOU failed your child". But that won't happen anytime soon.
At the same time, you need good administrators who aren't afraid to get rid of bad teachers (and as much as people bitch about unions it can be done with a good admin staff to evaluate and document). And there needs to be more parental responsibility.
We just had a school shooting in my district yesterday. The parent of the 16 year old arrested is already blaming "the system". It's time someone stood up and said "No YOU failed your child". But that won't happen anytime soon.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 10:59 am to the808bass
quote:
A teacher with 20 years experience and a Master's degree will make $80k+ here in suburban STL
I can't speak for St. Louis but the teachers who are in low-performing schools here aren't 20 year teachers. They're untenured, fresh out of the door because there's no incentive for a long-term teacher in a low-performing school getting state audited every 2 years and dealing with huge staff turnover as a result. Making on average around $30k.
Stability is a huge, huge issue in those schools here. This is the first time in the 8 years I've been in my building we haven't had close to 30%+ staff turnover. Either due to audit recommedations or teachers who burn out quick.
This post was edited on 10/1/14 at 11:00 am
Posted on 10/1/14 at 11:25 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Making on average around $30k.
I think starting pay is around $40k here for a BA.
Eta: average salaries range from mid 40s in exurban STL, to 50s in suburban and city STL to 60s in the wealthy districts.
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Add in a retirement system where you will make more in take-home compensation than you did while working after 25 years, and the whole "underpaid" story disappears.
This post was edited on 10/1/14 at 11:31 am
Posted on 10/1/14 at 11:27 am to the808bass
Yeah here they start out between $30 and $35k.
ETA: And really, even at $40k, it's still not much incentive to deal with kids who are doing things like dealing drugs, bringing fire arms to school, and etc. And because of pressure from "groups" in the city, they have gotten rid of our zero tolerance policy and the issues I listed above are no longer a guaranteed alternative school placement (they don't expel in my county either).
ETA: And really, even at $40k, it's still not much incentive to deal with kids who are doing things like dealing drugs, bringing fire arms to school, and etc. And because of pressure from "groups" in the city, they have gotten rid of our zero tolerance policy and the issues I listed above are no longer a guaranteed alternative school placement (they don't expel in my county either).
This post was edited on 10/1/14 at 11:30 am
Posted on 10/1/14 at 11:32 am to BluegrassBelle
quote:
And because of pressure from "groups" in the city, they have gotten rid of our zero tolerance policy and the issues I listed above are no longer a guaranteed alternative school placement
This would be my number one target for education reform.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 11:44 am to the808bass
It's really getting out of hand here. And I agree it's up there in the list of things that need to change. After the shooting here I wouldn't be surprised to see the union step in if the student has had any kind of negative behavior history and wasn't removed from the school.
Here they only go to an alternative placement for 12 weeks. It's nothing but a placeholder. By majority they come back and it does no good because they've missed valid instruction. And now with the tightened requirements to get them in those placements, they're wanting schools to create "transition rooms" for those students and that's not doing anything either. The only ones benefitting from that are kids who were maybe just starting to run with the wrong crowd and aren't in too deep.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a rise in teachers pressing charges against students in assaults and that sort of thing because of it. And all that will do is force the district to place students at other schools.
ETA: and don't get me started on dealing with EBD students.
Here they only go to an alternative placement for 12 weeks. It's nothing but a placeholder. By majority they come back and it does no good because they've missed valid instruction. And now with the tightened requirements to get them in those placements, they're wanting schools to create "transition rooms" for those students and that's not doing anything either. The only ones benefitting from that are kids who were maybe just starting to run with the wrong crowd and aren't in too deep.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a rise in teachers pressing charges against students in assaults and that sort of thing because of it. And all that will do is force the district to place students at other schools.
ETA: and don't get me started on dealing with EBD students.
This post was edited on 10/1/14 at 11:46 am
Posted on 10/1/14 at 12:19 pm to BluegrassBelle
In our elementary schools, the max is 10 days out of school suspension. And that isn't used even as much as it should be. The diagnoses available to deal with some of the kids are limited because of their age. So they are in a regular classroom, assaulting staff and other kids on a daily basis. Then some news channel comes in and does a show saying "can you believe they put a 6-year-old in handcuffs?" Yeah. I can believe it. What did the shitty little crack baby do to get put in handcuffs?
Posted on 10/1/14 at 12:27 pm to BillyBobPorkin
quote:
It's way past time to overhaul our education system
No shite. It's time they stopped prosecuting hot teachers who frick their students.
Posted on 10/1/14 at 12:31 pm to the808bass
Yeah any of our ECE is that way and if you are in the unfortunate circumstance where a previous school wrote a shitshow IEP (we get this a lot being in a pretty transient area) then they can barely be suspended for anything that was listed as their "disability".
I think you can go even further in debating changes to the special education portion of the school systems (which is pretty well a national standard) and how badly hands are tied in the school system when it comes to kids who end up labeled EBD. There is a definite issue with determining what is truly their disability and what isn't. And why they should only be suspended 10 days if their behavior is that defiant.
I think you can go even further in debating changes to the special education portion of the school systems (which is pretty well a national standard) and how badly hands are tied in the school system when it comes to kids who end up labeled EBD. There is a definite issue with determining what is truly their disability and what isn't. And why they should only be suspended 10 days if their behavior is that defiant.
Posted on 10/2/14 at 2:35 am to BluegrassBelle
@ tigerpanzer So fricking true!!!!
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