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re: STL Sports Thread
Posted on 8/18/13 at 1:25 pm to reedus23
Posted on 8/18/13 at 1:25 pm to reedus23
Yeah, I never liked that contract, but he's still a productive hitter. His fielding is just really poor.
In better news, Wacha has been unhittable since the move to the bullpen. 3 innings, 7 strikeouts, no runners allowed.
In better news, Wacha has been unhittable since the move to the bullpen. 3 innings, 7 strikeouts, no runners allowed.
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Posted on 8/18/13 at 2:19 pm to reedus23
quote:
Now who is being dramatic.
We'll agree to disagree about exactly how bad Holliday is. He's not worth his contract, no where near it. But he's not a hack.
Here are his slash lines since coming to St Louis:
2009 63g .353/.419/.604/1.023 13 HR 55 RBI
2010 158g .312/.390/.532/.922 28 HR 103 RBI
2011 124g .296/.388/.525/.912 22 HR 75 RBI
2012 157g .295/.379/.497/.877 27 HR 102 RBI
2013 105g .289/.374/.460/.834 15 HR 61 RBI
Total St Louis Slash line:
.305/.387/.517/.903 HR 105 RBI 396
Folks can say what they want about Holliday on a personal level, that they just dont like him blah blah blah. When looking at his production and then saying things like "holliday is a joke" thats just pure and utter B.S. not backed up by any semblance of fact.
No offense meant but Holliday, comparatively, is a good value in his contract and his production with other similar outfielders not in arbitration bound years contracts.
His number are slowly trending down. He is 33, will be 34 next season. He is still putting up fairly good numbers and has 3 years left. Now there is the jeopardy that he has a substantial fall off in the last 2 years but I feel like that is highly unlikely. I would be surprised to see a year or two, if healthy, of an increase in production a couple of these years.
No, when looking at the market as a whole Holliday has been a good value and his production has been fine.
This post was edited on 8/18/13 at 2:52 pm
Posted on 8/18/13 at 5:13 pm to kilo
They knew full well that the last couple of years of his contract would not be worth the price they would be paying for those years. That's the price you pay for getting him in the better years. That's also what is hilarious about the Pujols contract. They got ZERO good years out of him, not a bunch of good ones followed by a couple/few bad ones.
Posted on 8/18/13 at 5:21 pm to reedus23
Pirates lose today.
Cards 1 game out. What a crazy division race we are in. I would have laughed uncontrollably during spring training if someone would have said that the NL central would be the best division in baseball on August 18th with 3 teams in playoff berths.
Cards 1 game out. What a crazy division race we are in. I would have laughed uncontrollably during spring training if someone would have said that the NL central would be the best division in baseball on August 18th with 3 teams in playoff berths.
Posted on 8/18/13 at 7:58 pm to kilo
That's what the Holliday lover love to show, his stats.
But there is so much more to it. Is the guy bad, no not at all.
But look at this year, he'll end up with a decent batting average but for over half the year he was a minus player on offense. Hit .250ish while leading the league in double plays.
He's a minus player on defense.
The guy plays hr derby before every game like some kind of kid... yet he's not even really a hr hitter. He's a line drive hitter.
So far he's not helped his team much in the playoffs. His one good series was vs MKE in the NLCS, and if you remember everyone on both teams was crushing the ball.
He was useless in the WS. Removed for game 7. Dropped the ball in 09.
He gets a lot of hits when it doesn't really matter, and he'll flake when it counts.. not all the time, but that's the reputation he's earned.
Money wise, its not a bad deal at all. Other guys got more that do less...
You've accused me of being too black and white. I just am in the gray on him... he's okay, but it shouldn't be a yes or no on him, the bad should be talked about just as much as the good.. and when you do that honestly then those numbers don't mean as much.
But there is so much more to it. Is the guy bad, no not at all.
But look at this year, he'll end up with a decent batting average but for over half the year he was a minus player on offense. Hit .250ish while leading the league in double plays.
He's a minus player on defense.
The guy plays hr derby before every game like some kind of kid... yet he's not even really a hr hitter. He's a line drive hitter.
So far he's not helped his team much in the playoffs. His one good series was vs MKE in the NLCS, and if you remember everyone on both teams was crushing the ball.
He was useless in the WS. Removed for game 7. Dropped the ball in 09.
He gets a lot of hits when it doesn't really matter, and he'll flake when it counts.. not all the time, but that's the reputation he's earned.
Money wise, its not a bad deal at all. Other guys got more that do less...
You've accused me of being too black and white. I just am in the gray on him... he's okay, but it shouldn't be a yes or no on him, the bad should be talked about just as much as the good.. and when you do that honestly then those numbers don't mean as much.
This post was edited on 8/18/13 at 7:59 pm
Posted on 8/18/13 at 8:21 pm to mograyback
quote:
That's what the Holliday lover love to show, his stats.
No, thats what someone trying to be objective does. I dont have some personal fandom for Matt Holliday. Not surprised you lead off with an ad hominem when presented with some hard facts. Its tired MO. I like you and your quirky style but the attacks are fricking nauseating and just flat tiring.
You called him "a joke" when the numbers tell a different story. But of course numbers only mean something when they back up your opinions. Thats something I have come to understand about you. Thats cool and I dont care but you don't embrace very many ideas of conventional thinking so its hard for someone to try and interject widely accepted facts when you just brush them aside so easily.
Don't know man. Its hard to interact with a persona akin to a piece of sandpaper most of the time.
Posted on 8/18/13 at 8:38 pm to kilo
Bases Empty .238
Runners On .348
RISP .371
RISP w/2 Outs .382
Bases Loaded .333
I'd say he actually gets better when it really matters. He's pathetic with no one on. Good with runners on. Good with RISP and great with RISP and 2 outs. Bases loaded ain't too shabby either.
Runners On .348
RISP .371
RISP w/2 Outs .382
Bases Loaded .333
I'd say he actually gets better when it really matters. He's pathetic with no one on. Good with runners on. Good with RISP and great with RISP and 2 outs. Bases loaded ain't too shabby either.
Posted on 8/18/13 at 8:40 pm to reedus23
But he is hitting .098 with a 1-2 count. 
Posted on 8/18/13 at 9:45 pm to reedus23
quote:
I'd say he actually gets better when it really matters. He's pathetic with no one on. Good with runners on.
So good w runners on that he leads the league in double plays.
He's really good when we're already scoring runs. He's not the guy in the lineup that shows up when the rest of the offense didn't.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 3:18 am to reedus23
Change 'if you don't chew big red' with 'if you like Matt Holliday'
He's ok I guess.. hard to argue with stats. You guys win. He's really good.
He's ok I guess.. hard to argue with stats. You guys win. He's really good.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 8:49 am to mograyback
Naw, you don't have to like Matt Holliday. I just don't think he's as much of a "joke" as far as being a player goes as was made out.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 8:04 pm to mograyback
Anyone think Shelby is truly a future ace?
I say no.
He was a dominant HS pitcher, but he's just going to be a good MLB pitcher.
His fastball was untouchable in HS, and in the low minor leagues. He wast touted as a flamethrower, but he really only throws 91-94. His braking ball should get better, making that not so untouchable fastball more effective.
I just don't think this is the 'ace' 'top prospect' type of guy we were expecting.
He's not in the elite class of new arms in MLB. He's a B+ guy, while the true elites are A+ arms.
I say no.
He was a dominant HS pitcher, but he's just going to be a good MLB pitcher.
His fastball was untouchable in HS, and in the low minor leagues. He wast touted as a flamethrower, but he really only throws 91-94. His braking ball should get better, making that not so untouchable fastball more effective.
I just don't think this is the 'ace' 'top prospect' type of guy we were expecting.
He's not in the elite class of new arms in MLB. He's a B+ guy, while the true elites are A+ arms.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 9:14 pm to mograyback
Kolten Wong finally got his first hit. Use to watch him in Springfield. 
Posted on 8/19/13 at 9:36 pm to bayou2003
To Cards front office
Wacha is not Wainwright of 06.
Waino had the fastball and nasty curve.
Wacha has a predictable fastball, over the top delivery that is easy to pick up on, and no where close to the secondary pitches Waino had in 06.
Their last names both start with W, they're both about the same height. But they're not the same. Sorry.
Wacha is not Wainwright of 06.
Waino had the fastball and nasty curve.
Wacha has a predictable fastball, over the top delivery that is easy to pick up on, and no where close to the secondary pitches Waino had in 06.
Their last names both start with W, they're both about the same height. But they're not the same. Sorry.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 9:49 pm to mograyback
I think Shelby is already a solid #2 guy for a majority of teams. I don't know that he would be a #1 on many teams, if any. He is just a rookie however. I think it's still too early to say how good he will be. I will say that his stuff doesn't wow me like Waino's did when he came up.
Wacha is how many months removed from college? Give him time and I think he'll be solid. But again, I don't know if he'll be a #1 type starter solid.
Wacha is how many months removed from college? Give him time and I think he'll be solid. But again, I don't know if he'll be a #1 type starter solid.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 10:09 pm to reedus23
quote:
I think Shelby is already a solid #2 guy for a majority of teams. I don't know that he would be a #1 on many teams, if any. He is just a rookie however. I think it's still too early to say how good he will be. I will say that his stuff doesn't wow me like Waino's did when he came up.
The point is that his stuff isn't 'wow'. He's not the flame throwing ace we heard about. And he has yet to develop much of a curve. If he develops a curve, he'll get away with his good, but not exceptional fastball. The point is that he's not one of these elite arms that you're finding all over baseball.
quote:
Wacha is how many months removed from college? Give him time and I think he'll be solid. But again, I don't know if he'll be a #1 type starter solid.
Great. What is your point about how long he's been removed from college? He's the same age as Shelby. And experience has nothing to do with my comment. The only point I was making is that Wacha does not have the arsenal of pitches that Waino had in 06 when he was used in the back of the bullpen. Wacha doesn't have the curve that Waino had... I know the Cards love to compare Wacha to Waino, and they've given him this late inning/high leverage role in the bullpen, the problem is Wacha doesn't have what Waino had.
This post was edited on 8/19/13 at 10:11 pm
Posted on 8/19/13 at 10:21 pm to mograyback
Relax mo, I agree with you. Neither of them have the kind of stuff Waino showed when he first came up. All I was stating was my opinion that that doesn't mean they still can't be effective pitchers for the Cardinals.
On second thought, you're right.
Holliday sucks.
Miller sucks.
Wacha sucks.
Freeze sucks.
Hell, Westbrook sucks.
It's a miracle the Cards are in the hunt.
On second thought, you're right.
Holliday sucks.
Miller sucks.
Wacha sucks.
Freeze sucks.
Hell, Westbrook sucks.
It's a miracle the Cards are in the hunt.
Posted on 8/19/13 at 10:23 pm to reedus23
quote:
Relax mo, I agree with you. Neither of them have the kind of stuff Waino showed when he first came up. All I was stating was my opinion that that doesn't mean they still can't be effective pitchers for the Cardinals.
Why though? Did I state they aren't effective pitchers?
You didn't really touch on the issues being brought up.
I really don't want to be on this planet of people that don't read books, people have no comprehension skills whatsoever.
quote:
Holliday sucks.
Miller sucks.
Wacha sucks.
Freeze sucks.
Hell, Westbrook sucks.
It's a miracle the Cards are in the hun
Nice.
This post was edited on 8/19/13 at 10:25 pm
Posted on 8/19/13 at 10:27 pm to mograyback
quote:
Why though? Did I state they aren't effective pitchers?
Mo, it's a stupid game that could be played all night. I could say, but I never said you said they aren't effective pitchers. Whatever you said, I agree.
quote:
Grow up.
Never
Posted on 8/19/13 at 10:28 pm to reedus23
Oh, the "Grow up" got quoted before the edit. My bad.
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