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Posted on 1/5/12 at 8:45 am to Big12fan
good try....
Posted on 1/5/12 at 9:34 am to Big12fan
quote:
WVa & TCU > A&M & Mizzou
Speaking of football only. So what do you think?
This year, yes. Historically and for the long term, no.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 9:40 am to Palooza11
quote:
WV and TCU have had a lot of success. However, Mizzou and Texas A&M have more potential.
Without a doubt.
quote:
A&M in specifically has not used it wisely in the last decade or so. The facilities, the money, the fan base, the atmosphere. Everything is there for it to be a good program, it just hasn't molded all of it together.
Agree completely. They need to hire a really good coach and I think that will be the final piece of the puzzle. Maybe Sumlin is that coach. We'll see, but he is going to need a defense. He won't win many 73-35 games in the SEC.
quote:
West Virginia and TCU will struggle in the Big 12.
Agreed, TCU more so than WVU, IMO.
quote:
TCU will eventually become a player in the conference due to recruiting in a BCS conference, and being based in the state of Texas
I think it takes more than that, though. They don't have the fan base and visibility that WVU has. I wouldn't be surprised to see TCU become a lower-tier Big XII team while WVU is a mid- to upper-tier one.
This post was edited on 1/5/12 at 9:42 am
Posted on 1/5/12 at 9:45 am to Nuts4LSU
quote:
They don't have the fan base and visibility that WVU has.
To be fair, I think TCU only has about 8000 total students so the fan base will necessarily be smaller. Even Vanderbilt (which I assume has the smallest enrollment in the SEC) has more than 10,000 I think.
And obviously, of the four teams mentioned in the OP, A&M is the best situated for future success. It comes down to whether Sumlin's the right guy.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 9:52 am to SunHog
quote:
Their business model is better than Oklahoma States and OSU has had a lot of success with worse history
OSU has T Boone Pickens, and that's why they have recently started having sucess.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 9:53 am to AGBQ99
quote:
The only schools that can kill the Big 12 now are OU and OSU
Other than Texas, of course. But I agree that OU and OSU could/would kill it.
quote:
who takes them now...they are a package deal.
If OSU keeps getting better, they'll become a pretty attractive package deal from a football quality standpoint. They still have the issue of media markets, etc., but OU's national brand could soften that problem. In the end it's going to be either the Pac 12 or the SEC, and the Pac 12 won't take them without Texas. If it starts to look like OU and OSU will leave for the SEC, I think Texas will bite the bullet and make the concessions necessary to join the Pac 12, taking OU and OSU (along with another Texas team, probably TTech) with them.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:01 am to SunHog
quote:
Looks like a fan base to me...
Not too bad, but it was easily the biggest game in TCU's history and they were still outnumbered by Wisconsin fans who have been to the Rose Bowl several times over the last couple of decades.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:05 am to SunHog
quote:
it's obvious the fan base is there hence the Rose Bowl.
That's one game, easily the biggest in their history. It's what you can put in the stands every week that affects long-term success (along with other factors of course). Averaging 38k in your best season ever and 42k the following year isn't going to cut it in a major conference, if the Big XII remains such. Those are Ole Miss and Vandy caliber numbers.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:08 am to SunHog
quote:
It's now much easier to drive to all home and away games in Texas.
And in their best season ever, they only managed to get 38k a game to their home games. The following year (when the effect of the best season in history should be felt with increased ticket sales), it only went up to 42k. Distance is not the issue. Size, depth and interest of the fan base are their problems. And nobody outside of Fort Worth could care less about them.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:13 am to SunHog
quote:
Same fans that showed up for the Rose Bowl 45,000 of them who normal don't care to watch TCU play Wyoming or SDS at home.
However, they will show up to watch Texas, OU and OSU in Fort Worth.
So, they might draw 45k for the really big games? Big deal. And even that will only last for a couple or three years of going 0-3 or 1-2 vs. those teams every year.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:15 am to CapstoneGrad06
quote:
Texas Christian actually has a history of winning. They were just nearly killed as program when they were shut out of joining the Big XII in 1996.
They were dead long before that. They hadn't won a SWC title in decades (other than a 4- or 5-way split one year in the mid-90s when A&M was ineligible), and had been a bottom feeder in that conference for a long time before it fell apart.
This post was edited on 1/5/12 at 10:17 am
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:24 am to SunHog
quote:
Winning creates a larger fan base. This isn't hard
A fan base created by winning is temporary. As soon as the team has a few hard years, those fans are gone. A real fan base is built by a large and dedicated alumni base, which is why schools like Texas A&M in the last decade or so and LSU in the 1990s could remain relevant and drawing big crowds even in hard times. TCU doesn't have that fan base and it never will.
And, of course, to create even that temporary fan base you're touting, there's the small matter of winning in a conference whose fourth or fifth best team beat them this year.
quote:
They have better resources than Oklahoma State.
OK, sorry. I thought you were trying to be serious here. My bad.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:31 am to busey
quote:
a football program can be successful with little to no fan base or support. See Stanford
Stanford actually has quite a bit of support financially and a much bigger fan base than TCU. Still, even to the extent that you could compare them, Stanford (and, in past years, Miami) is the exception, not the rule. Over the past 30 years, I'll bet that over 80% of teams finishing in the final top 25 rankings were also in the top 25-30 in home attendance. Of course, there's the chicken and the egg issue, but large fan bases and on-field success usually go hand in hand.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 10:44 am to Nuts4LSU
Correct t.u. can kill the Big 12 but they won't.....they want to keep the sipnetwork no matter what...and no conference will accept them without drastic changes to it which they won't accpet unless OU and OSU kill the conference.
This post was edited on 1/5/12 at 10:45 am
Posted on 1/5/12 at 11:27 am to AGBQ99
quote:
but the Big 12 is still going to be one of the Big 4 conferences when all is said and done.
Actually, they won't. The writing is already on the wall that the conferences who will be left behind are the ones without a CCG.
Four conferences got 2 teams each into the BCS:
ACC, SEC, B1G, PAC 12. All had CCGs.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 11:52 am to CGSC Lobotomy
Lots of interesting (and predictable) responses, however, the OP said nothing about AAU, Academics, Fan Base, Brands, Potential, or any of that other crap. What I am talking about is performance on the field. And I don't care about 20 years ago, but am looking at recent history (since 2000).
TCU: BCS Bowls - 2 (1-1)
Wva: BCS Bowls - 3 (3-0)
Mizzou: BCS Bowls - 0
A&M: BCS Bowls - 0
In terms of performance on the field, the evidence is clear that adding TCU & West Virginia to the Big 12 has made it a stronger football conference. I'll even go 1 step further - Either TCU or WVa is better than either A&M & Mizzou in football. The Big 12 just became a better football conference.
Now you can argue all you want about potential and all that other stuff. Potential just means that you haven't done it yet.
TCU: BCS Bowls - 2 (1-1)
Wva: BCS Bowls - 3 (3-0)
Mizzou: BCS Bowls - 0
A&M: BCS Bowls - 0
In terms of performance on the field, the evidence is clear that adding TCU & West Virginia to the Big 12 has made it a stronger football conference. I'll even go 1 step further - Either TCU or WVa is better than either A&M & Mizzou in football. The Big 12 just became a better football conference.
Now you can argue all you want about potential and all that other stuff. Potential just means that you haven't done it yet.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 12:04 pm to Big12fan
quote:
In terms of performance on the field, the evidence is clear that adding TCU & West Virginia to the Big 12 has made it a glorified Big East. I'll even go 1 step further - Either TCU or WVa is better than either A&M & Mizzou in beating shitty teams that A&M nor Mizzou ever play. The Big 12 just became an even more watered down conference but I hope this band-aid buys Mack enough time to squeeze another MNC in before the whole thing goes to shite.
FIFY
Posted on 1/5/12 at 12:14 pm to Big12fan
quote:
WVa & TCU > A&M & Mizzou
WVa & TCU have more to offer the Big 12 than the Big 12 has to offer them.
Re: A&M and Missouri: They have a more promising future in the SEC. The SEC will make them stronger, which in turn is better for the SEC. They are a much better addition for the SEC than WVa & TCU.
Posted on 1/5/12 at 12:33 pm to Big12fan
quote:
Lots of interesting (and predictable) responses, however, the OP said nothing about AAU, Academics, Fan Base, Brands, Potential, or any of that other crap. What I am talking about is performance on the field. And I don't care about 20 years ago, but am looking at recent history (since 2000).
TCU: BCS Bowls - 2 (1-1)
Wva: BCS Bowls - 3 (3-0)
Mizzou: BCS Bowls - 0
A&M: BCS Bowls - 0
In terms of performance on the field, the evidence is clear that adding TCU & West Virginia to the Big 12 has made it a stronger football conference. I'll even go 1 step further - Either TCU or WVa is better than either A&M & Mizzou in football. The Big 12 just became a better football conference.
@ using WVU BCS bowl records when they get free passes every year because of the weakness of the Big East. What about the season where WVU was ranked below Mizzou in the BCS ranking but went ahead of them to BCS games because of the idiocy of the system?
Or this year when they get to play Clemson in a 'BCS bowl' while K-St. and Arkansas get pushed to the Cotton Bowl?
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