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Posted on 1/9/15 at 4:43 pm to TaxmanMSU
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It wasn't a terrible hire by Stricklin, it was the only one. It was already a dumpster fire thanks to Stansbury. Don't get it twisted.
You're insane if you don't think we could have done better. What does "already a dumpster fire" mean? Do you mean to imply that because of the previous coach, we were unable to hire someone competent and by year 3 there was still no chance of them winning?? That's ridiculous.
Hoops ain't football. A good coach can turn a basketball program around in 2 years, easy. We could still recruit in the upper half of the SEC even in Stansbury's worst years.
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I think we need to make a big splash with the next hire.
By your same logic, that's impossible. In my opinion, the program is in worse condition that what Stans left it in.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 4:56 pm to sharpSee
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You're insane if you don't think we could have done better. What does "already a dumpster fire" mean? Do you mean to imply that because of the previous coach, we were unable to hire someone competent and by year 3 there was still no chance of them winning?? That's ridiculous.
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By your same logic, that's impossible. In my opinion, the program is in worse condition that what Stans left it in.
I just can't agree with any of that. Respectfully, of course.
No one wanted to coach at Mississippi State when Stansbury left. Absolutely no one. To add to that, our program is definitely in a better place now than it was when Ray took over. Maybe not in the sense of games won, but it is.
I made this analogy earlier, but I think it's the best way to describe it; It's the same thing that happened when Sherrill left. Sure we didn't win as many games under Croom, but everything behind the scenes is as close to the same as it possibly could be.
This post was edited on 1/9/15 at 4:57 pm
Posted on 1/9/15 at 5:05 pm to DynastyDawg
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I made this analogy earlier, but I think it's the best way to describe it; It's the same thing that happened when Sherrill left. Sure we didn't win as many games under Croom, but everything behind the scenes is as close to the same as it possibly could be.
So with this you are saying Croom was the best we could have done for our football team at the time? No other coach would have had a better job at turning around a program than Sylvester Croom? Shirley, you must be joking.
Rick Ray was a shitty hire.
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No one wanted to coach at Mississippi State when Stansbury left.
This is horse shite. It really is. Kenny Payne is one option off the top of my head I can think of. Stricklin gambled on a no name and lost. Rick Ray is a good dude. I'm sure he was impressive in his interview... But we could have done better.
Posted on 1/9/15 at 5:11 pm to DynastyDawg
I'm just not sure what "condition" a program can be defined by if not performance. Status of a program is directly related to its purpose, the purpose of the program is to win games.
When Ray took over, we were coming off a 22? win season. There were several talented players on the team, including one of a handful of 5 star recruits we've ever had. Right now I'm not sure we have 3 players that could have made the team 5 years ago, and we are far and away the worst team in the SEC. We just got out rebounded by 16 at home, and scored 48 points despite 44 trips to the foul line, by a Tennessee team that was also struggling. We have no fundamentals and are not well coached.
Sylvester Croom was a shitty coach and did not a damn thing for our football program. Dan Mullen has ran a far cleaner program and been successful doing it. Coaches aren't hired to "clean the slate", they are hired to win. That's bush league talk we use to justify making a stupid hire.
When Ray took over, we were coming off a 22? win season. There were several talented players on the team, including one of a handful of 5 star recruits we've ever had. Right now I'm not sure we have 3 players that could have made the team 5 years ago, and we are far and away the worst team in the SEC. We just got out rebounded by 16 at home, and scored 48 points despite 44 trips to the foul line, by a Tennessee team that was also struggling. We have no fundamentals and are not well coached.
Sylvester Croom was a shitty coach and did not a damn thing for our football program. Dan Mullen has ran a far cleaner program and been successful doing it. Coaches aren't hired to "clean the slate", they are hired to win. That's bush league talk we use to justify making a stupid hire.
This post was edited on 1/9/15 at 5:16 pm
Posted on 1/10/15 at 9:30 am to sharpSee
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So with this you are saying Croom was the best we could have done for our football team at the time? No other coach would have had a better job at turning around a program than Sylvester Croom? Shirley, you must be joking.
The analogy has nothing to do with the hiring of either men. In the post you responded to, I was addressing the state of the program, before and after the hire, not the hire itself.
The end of the Sherrill years had bred a culture within the football program. A ton of JUCO guys that had been in trouble, or didn't have the grades. Our program was built around that. While it was successful for a while, you cannot sustain success that way.
Enter Sylvester Croom. He kicked so many players off the team his first year I want to say we had like 53 scholarship players on an 85 man roster. He was tasked with "cleaning up" the program, and id say he did a pretty good part in it. He was interviewed earlier this year where he talked about how he still felt a part of the program because he knew that's what he was there to do.
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This is horse shite. It really is. Kenny Payne is one option off the top of my head I can think of. Stricklin gambled on a no name and lost. Rick Ray is a good dude. I'm sure he was impressive in his interview... But we could have done better.
Yeah, we covered that already. Kenny Payne was literally the ONLY name you ever seriously heard talked about. There was the same speculation around Payne and his ties to the AAU circuit as there was about Tindal.
You can't seriously throw out ONE name, which had already been mentioned and say that you know there were better candidates. I'm not talking about message board pipe dreams, I'm talking about realistic candidates. Stricklin's not some goddamn moron. If there were better options, we would have explored them.
Posted on 1/10/15 at 9:51 am to skirpnasty
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I'm just not sure what "condition" a program can be defined by if not performance. Status of a program is directly related to its purpose, the purpose of the program is to win games.
Come on man. I know that you are smart enough to know that there are things that go on that effect W&L. You can absolutely tell about a "condition" of a program by much more than "it's purpose".
Do yall not remember the fight on national television in Hawaii? I know for a fact that more people than me remember seeing Dee, Ravern, Moultrie, Sydney, Romero, doing absolutely stupid shite, either the night before a morning game among a plethora of other things. There's a fricking reason Moultrie has been suspended three times for NBA's drug policy. I loved Dee more than a lot of our former players but you routinely saw him fricked up at parties the night before games. fricking Rodney Hood talked about quitting basketball halfway through his freshman season because he had "turned into something that wasn't himself". He wasn't one to party and smoke weed and shite, but the older guys on that team sucked him in. That quote is directly from Hood's dad when he talked about convincing Rodney to stay until the end of the year.
The point is that Stansbury had created a culture where he let the players do what the frick they wanted. Sure we'd go to the tournament every now and again, just because we had the sheer talent that even Stansbury couldn't frick up on gameday.
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When Ray took over, we were coming off a 22? win season.
21-12 (8-8)
In Stansbury's 14 years, we won 10 conference game 3 times. We finished 9-7 or 8-8, 8 times. We had losing conference records 3 times. As for the rest of that paragraph I'm not defending this team. We are bad.
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Sylvester Croom was a shitty coach and did not a damn thing for our football program. Dan Mullen has ran a far cleaner program and been successful doing it. Coaches aren't hired to "clean the slate", they are hired to win. That's bush league talk we use to justify making a stupid hire.
I'm not "Justifying" anything. Im telling you what happened. There was no one else. The only thing else there was, was another guy just like Ray with another unknown name. This program was a joke and everyone around the country was laughing. If that offends you because you loved Stansbury then I don't know what to tell you. I loved Stans too, but it doesn't blind me from seeing what was going on.
This post was edited on 1/10/15 at 9:52 am
Posted on 1/10/15 at 11:50 am to DynastyDawg
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If there were better options, we would have explored them.
If you can't see that we could have hired better than a no-name assistant coach from a shitty lower tier ACC school then I don't know what to tell you. I think it's asinine to say Rick Ray is the absolute best we could have done. Your only justification for this is blaming it on Rick Stansbury. It's quite amazing how some bulldogs have grown such contempt for the most successful basketball coach in our school history. Sure, he slid off at the end there and I was fine with making a change, but to say Rick Ray is the best we could do and that is Rick Stansbury's fault is absurd.
Posted on 1/10/15 at 2:00 pm to DynastyDawg
If nobody would coach here then, they sure as hell won't now. The cupboard is completely dry. The only positive to a prospective coach is our AD is "forgiving" and was too soft to fire Ray after his first year when everyone initially knew this wouldn't work.
Posted on 1/10/15 at 2:12 pm to sharpSee
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If you can't see that we could have hired better than a no-name assistant coach from a shitty lower tier ACC school then I don't know what to tell you.
My theory - Basketball program in the shitter, couldn't get good coach.
Your theory - Our current AD that has lead or AD into the most prosperous time period for MSU sports in history, is such a god damn dumb arse he hired Rick Ray of all of the prestigious coaches that were knocking our door down.
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Your only justification for this is blaming it on Rick Stansbury.
And your only justification for this is that our AD is incompetent. Despite all of our AD's current success.
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It's quite amazing how some bulldogs have grown such contempt for the most successful basketball coach in our school history.
Who's has contempt for Rick Stansbury? I am merely pointing out to you that our AD isn't a fricking dumbass.
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to say Rick Ray is the best we could do and that is Rick Stansbury's fault is absurd.
So tell me, SharpSee, who is to blame for the culture around the program at the end of Standburys tenure?
It's not like anyone hates Sherrill and forgets all those great years because he fricked up at the end. Why does everyone assume that because you point out that Stansbury fricked up at the end that well somehow just forget about all the other good years?
Posted on 1/10/15 at 5:34 pm to sharpSee
I honestly can't wait till we can all just lap up the sucess of our winning Basketball program.
I give it 5 years.
I give it 5 years.
Posted on 1/10/15 at 7:06 pm to TaxmanMSU
I'm not sure how. We have a great opportunity, nobody is a basketball name in our region. Kentucky is the nearest basketball powerhouse. Meanwhile, in the prime of SEC TV exposure, we piss away any relevance we built over the past 20 years.
Posted on 1/11/15 at 4:08 pm to DynastyDawg
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Your theory - Our current AD that has lead or AD into the most prosperous time period for MSU sports in history, is such a god damn dumb arse he hired Rick Ray of all of the prestigious coaches that were knocking our door down.
No. I'm saying Scott swung and missed. Also to say Scott is above criticism is laughable. Greg Byrne hired Mullen, who has brought us football prowess. Scott missed on his men's basketball hire and got lobbed a meatball with Cohen. (Does anyone really give a shite about any of the other hires?) I like Scott and think he has represented MSU very well, but if Scott can not conduct a solid search for our next men's basketball coach, he should be criticized and probably be put on the proverbial hot seat.
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And your only justification for this is that our AD is incompetent. Despite all of our AD's current success.
Show me anywhere I said Stricklin is incompetent. I said we could have hired someone better than Rick Ray. My entire argument is that we could have done better. I feel like Scott took a gamble and missed.
I wish I could get a better understanding from you. This whole "our program was such a dumpster fire so no one wanted to come here".. I can't even comprehend that. I can't imagine a scenario where coaches across the country looked at our program and said, "no I don't want millions because that team has attitude issues". What? What coach has ever thought like that? When has that ever happened to a program before? Coaches think about a lot of things about taking a job and I'm sure what the attitude of the players on the team last year is at the very bottom of the list. Do you think our scenario with not living up to expectations is something new? I would say the majority of coach firings revolve around the exact same thing. The Stansbury situation wasn't unique.
Again I'll restate my case. To me, we should expect more for our next Mens Basketball hire. If Stricklin hires another dud, will you still blame Stansbury? The only thing going for us now is that we've completely lowered expectations for what success should be.
This post was edited on 1/11/15 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 1/12/15 at 6:52 am to sharpSee
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No. I'm saying Scott swung and missed
Agreed.
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Also to say Scott is above criticism is laughable
The rate at which you put words in my mouth is what is laughable.
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Scott missed on his men's basketball hire and got lobbed a meatball with Cohen
I guess we can just not count the Cohen hire then.
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(Does anyone really give a shite about any of the other hires?)
I do. I wouldn't count each individual one separately, but I would most definitely look at the overall of the other sports. I would just say he needs to improve them as a whole, and he has definitely done that.
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I like Scott and think he has represented MSU very well, but if Scott can not conduct a solid search for our next men's basketball coach, he should be criticized and probably be put on the proverbial hot seat.
Agreed again.
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Show me anywhere I said Stricklin is incompetent. I said we could have hired someone better than Rick Ray. My entire argument is that we could have done better. I feel like Scott took a gamble and missed.
My argument is that if he could have done better, he would have. He was handcuffed because no one wanted to be here. He didn't choose Ray because that was his first choice.
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This whole "our program was such a dumpster fire so no one wanted to come here".. I can't even comprehend that.
So because you don't think that's what happened, you just throw out that scenario completely? Like it's not even an option? Why?
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I can't imagine a scenario where coaches across the country looked at our program and said, "no I don't want millions because that team has attitude issues". What? What coach has ever thought like that? When has that ever happened to a program before? Coaches think about a lot of things about taking a job and I'm sure what the attitude of the players on the team last year is at the very bottom of the list.
Coaches now days can be a lot more selective. They don't just take jobs because it's there. If a coach thinks he can sustain what he has at a mid-major or lower tier job, he will just wait until the perfect scenario becomes available. They most definitely look at the bigger picture.
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Again I'll restate my case. To me, we should expect more for our next Mens Basketball hire
Absolutely.
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If Stricklin hires another dud, will you still blame Stansbury?
Why would I do that? Why would a coach two terms ago effect the new hiring process?
I have a question for you, however. Will you ever admit that Stansbury did anything wrong? You put words in my mouth and say that I think Scott is above criticism, yet you think Stansbury did absolutely no wrong. That boggles the mind. It's not just you though, there is a large portion of our fanbase that thinks Stansbury is some god.
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