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Posted on 10/25/16 at 11:14 am to umrebel96
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Not always. Look at Wisconsin. Or, on the flip side, Texas. While it's easier to coach defense with Alabama's players, a defense full of 4 and 5 stars and bad coaching is still gonna struggle, and a defense full of 3 stars with good coaching is gonna play well.
I agree that scheme/coaching matters some, but it's not the main problem. Wisco and Texas don't face the athletes Ole Miss does on a weekly basis as well.
I actually think offense can be schemed more than defense to offset lack of talent (see Option teams, or Texas Tech). On defense it's hard to hide the Youngbloods and Carlos Davis' of the world.
If you want to win the SEC, there is no substitute for players.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 12:01 pm to Billy Mays
Tom Allen Indiana DC: good d's but runs 4-2-5 and said said was not a great recruiter. Also from Indiana and there now.
Mike Elko Wake Forest: originally from Penn. Has good d's at school w/ limited talent;
Dave Huxtable NC State: coached a lot in Georgia and Carolinas. His d's look tough and must play w/ a less than prolific offense.
Josh Conklin Pitt: lots of coaching experience in the south and very young.
Mike Elko Wake Forest: originally from Penn. Has good d's at school w/ limited talent;
Dave Huxtable NC State: coached a lot in Georgia and Carolinas. His d's look tough and must play w/ a less than prolific offense.
Josh Conklin Pitt: lots of coaching experience in the south and very young.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 12:11 pm to Billy Mays
quote:
Defense is all about players and athletes. Scheme is overrated AF.
Derek Mason says hello.
That man proves schemes and coaching can have a crazy impact. You can have a team full of the best players, but if your scheme and strategy is not putting them in position to make the plays, then it won't work well. '
[img]If you want to win the SEC, there is no substitute for players.
[/img]
True, in the SEC you need great players, but you also need scheme. We now need to find someone who can at least recruit and has some level of defensive intelligence.
This post was edited on 10/25/16 at 12:13 pm
Posted on 10/25/16 at 12:22 pm to Billy Mays
quote:
Tom Allen - Indiana DC. IU is 26th in the country in yards per play defensively. Obvious Ole Miss connection.
I don't buy the hype yet. A lot of our misses on LBs are on him.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 12:37 pm to rebelcommodore
quote:
Derek Mason says hello.
That man proves schemes and coaching can have a crazy impact. You can have a team full of the best players, but if your scheme and strategy is not putting them in position to make the plays, then it won't work well. '
Does anyone actually think Wommack forgot how to coach? We had the number 1 scoring defense in CFB 2014
Posted on 10/25/16 at 1:10 pm to Billy Mays
There are 2 major difference between now and 2014. First he had some veteran players that were instrumental in being disciplined (Prewitt was a great player not because of athletic ability but because he was fundamentally sound and could get the other players into position). Secondly, Wommack also had someone as his right hand that was on the field during the time frame. I imagine he comes up with excellent plans but just fails miserably at teaching it to the players which I think was Allen's strong suit.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 1:15 pm to Billy Mays
No, i just think he was never very good at covering up deficiencies. That D didn't have any. Welcome to the era of no D talent. Bad now, but just wait until after signing day.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:00 pm to ABearsFanNMS
Let's see who actually would start for Alabama, LSU, TAMU, or Auburn:
Haynes (3-star) - Great, but LSU, Bama, Auburn, and TAMU have good DEs too
Speaks (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Jones (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Youngblood (2-star) - LUL
Gates (4-star) - no
Caldwell (2-star) - no
Conner (4-star) - no (injuries suck)
Bridges (4-star JUCO) - no
Julius (3-star) - no
Woods (2/3-star) - maybe Auburn, maybe?
Hartsfield (3-star) - no
No amount of coaching is gonna make these players better than what the expected value of them should be. These are not 5-star players, so the production you are getting is close to correct.
The biggest problem is that Bridges and Gates (both 4-star guys) have gone from solid contributors to negative players since 2015, and other 4-stars in Speaks and Jones have not filled the RN void that everyone thought they would. We knew going in the secondary was going to be young (and likely bad) but we haven't had enough production around them for them to not get exposed.
Haynes (3-star) - Great, but LSU, Bama, Auburn, and TAMU have good DEs too
Speaks (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Jones (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Youngblood (2-star) - LUL
Gates (4-star) - no
Caldwell (2-star) - no
Conner (4-star) - no (injuries suck)
Bridges (4-star JUCO) - no
Julius (3-star) - no
Woods (2/3-star) - maybe Auburn, maybe?
Hartsfield (3-star) - no
No amount of coaching is gonna make these players better than what the expected value of them should be. These are not 5-star players, so the production you are getting is close to correct.
The biggest problem is that Bridges and Gates (both 4-star guys) have gone from solid contributors to negative players since 2015, and other 4-stars in Speaks and Jones have not filled the RN void that everyone thought they would. We knew going in the secondary was going to be young (and likely bad) but we haven't had enough production around them for them to not get exposed.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:15 pm to UMRealist
quote:
Gross should really lose some of that weight he gained.
I asked this same question on here before. Either the weight is not serving him well or either the year off and the neck thing is a bit of hinderance some how. Or it could just be other stuff we hare harping on like coaching. At any rate, he is not having the impact I had hoped he would nor does he seem to be the player he was two years ago which is a big ol' bummer.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:23 pm to Billy Mays
quote:
Let's see who actually would start for Alabama, LSU, TAMU, or Auburn:
Haynes (3-star) - Great, but LSU, Bama, Auburn, and TAMU have good DEs too
Speaks (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Jones (4-star) - possible, not Bama
Youngblood (2-star) - LUL
Gates (4-star) - no
Caldwell (2-star) - no
Conner (4-star) - no (injuries suck)
Bridges (4-star JUCO) - no
Julius (3-star) - no
Woods (2/3-star) - maybe Auburn, maybe?
Hartsfield (3-star) - no
No amount of coaching is gonna make these players better than what the expected value of them should be. These are not 5-star players, so the production you are getting is close to correct.
The biggest problem is that Bridges and Gates (both 4-star guys) have gone from solid contributors to negative players since 2015, and other 4-stars in Speaks and Jones have not filled the RN void that everyone thought they would. We knew going in the secondary was going to be young (and likely bad) but we haven't had enough production around them for them to not get exposed.
Aces on this post. Now some of us are actually getting to the heart and soul of the matter without just saying it's over, we suck, I give up or what the hell is wrong, we are supposed to be 6-1 right now? Maybe all of this is in some way true, but at least we should attempt to analyze what's going on and what can be done. Not that any of us can actually do it.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:38 pm to Insideradvantage
The schedule has been brutal too. Defense has been exposed by 3 good offenses (LSU, Bama, and FSU). Give this defense our 2015 schedule and maybe it's not as poorly-rated.
On the flip side, they looked horrible against an Arkansas team that is statistically poor on offense. Georgia is another offensively-inept team, but they really just gave up yards in garbage time. The defense held it's own against a solid Memphis offense, but were victims of the big play too often.
They should fare well against Vandy, Georgia Southern, and MSU. Auburn and TAMU finna get ugly.
On the flip side, they looked horrible against an Arkansas team that is statistically poor on offense. Georgia is another offensively-inept team, but they really just gave up yards in garbage time. The defense held it's own against a solid Memphis offense, but were victims of the big play too often.
They should fare well against Vandy, Georgia Southern, and MSU. Auburn and TAMU finna get ugly.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:39 pm to Billy Mays
quote:
No amount of coaching is gonna make these players better than what the expected value of them should be.
Again, with coaching, preparation and better scheming, you can put middle of the pack players to make better plays.
Vandy's defense is also comprised of 2 and 3 stars with the occasional 4 star: https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/8/5/12266654/vanderbilt-football-2016-preview-schedule-roster
Similarly, if you have LSU's WRs but never pass it to them because of Miles' scheme, you aren't putting them in a place to succeed. While you have mediocre WRs at other schools outperforming them because of scheme.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 2:56 pm to rebelcommodore
I hear what you are saying and I think there is some agreement, and we all know Wommack's time is coming to an end. I just think it was always going to be hard for the 2016 Ole Miss defense to be "middle of the pack" considering our schedule and the lack of talent and experience, and the unexpected regression of certain veteran players (and the Webster injury too).
Vandy is an average defensive team. If Vandy had our schedule, they would be rated below us in defensive metrics. In addition, their defense plays less snaps per game that our unit bc their offense runs at snails pace. Our offense has no running game and does us no favors. It's a huge difference between the style of football Vandy and Ole Miss play.
This Vandy schedule has them only at 58th best yards per play defensively in CFB:
South Carolina - terrible offense
MTSU - good offense, but Sun Belt
Georgia Tech - slightly below average offense
Western Kentucky - good offense, but Sun Belt
Florida - average offense
Kentucky - average offense
Georgia - terrible offense
TSU State - FCS
If Ole Miss had this schedule, the defense would be decently rated, and we would probably be undefeated.
Vandy is an average defensive team. If Vandy had our schedule, they would be rated below us in defensive metrics. In addition, their defense plays less snaps per game that our unit bc their offense runs at snails pace. Our offense has no running game and does us no favors. It's a huge difference between the style of football Vandy and Ole Miss play.
This Vandy schedule has them only at 58th best yards per play defensively in CFB:
South Carolina - terrible offense
MTSU - good offense, but Sun Belt
Georgia Tech - slightly below average offense
Western Kentucky - good offense, but Sun Belt
Florida - average offense
Kentucky - average offense
Georgia - terrible offense
TSU State - FCS
If Ole Miss had this schedule, the defense would be decently rated, and we would probably be undefeated.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:10 pm to Billy Mays
^^^ Good gosh. I had no idea Vandy had played such a schedule. We just might would be undefeated with that. I'll play devil's advocate and say we would have lost to Florida, but only if it's in Gainesville. Some will say, yeah, but it's Vandy, they should player lesser competition. Well guess what, they are in the SEC, Division I and if they go 12-0 you'd see them in the championship, maybe the playoff and on New Year's Day or better. The West is just a bitch and we need to make sure our future out of conference games are truly at a neutral site, not in the state of the opposition and preferably against Sunbelt or less in Oxford.
This post was edited on 10/25/16 at 3:12 pm
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:18 pm to Insideradvantage
I also just ran the recruiting stars from 247 on Vanderbilt's starting defense. I don't know how up-to-date these depth charts are, but just for shits n giggles:
Vandy:
3-star - 8
4-star - 3
Average stars 3.27
Ole Miss
2-star - 1
3-star - 6
4-star - 4
Average stars 3.18
Ole Miss has a talent problem. Also, every Vandy starter is a JR or above. Ole Miss has a true frosh and several 1st year players starting at present time.
Vandy:
3-star - 8
4-star - 3
Average stars 3.27
Ole Miss
2-star - 1
3-star - 6
4-star - 4
Average stars 3.18
Ole Miss has a talent problem. Also, every Vandy starter is a JR or above. Ole Miss has a true frosh and several 1st year players starting at present time.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:21 pm to Billy Mays
Well I know it's not all bout stars, but it ain't not about stars either.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:25 pm to Insideradvantage
Now I'm seeing today we have another de-committment (Bryan Jones)? Not seeing anything official though, if that's actually such a thing in the world of recruiting before signing day.
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:32 pm to Billy Mays
While I agree not many of our defensive players would start as they are right now, but players like CJ Hampton and Tony Bridges were very highly recruited. Bridges was the #1 Juco player in the country. Don't you find it odd that these talented guys have not developed at all under our coaching. For that matter, look at Nkemdiche and Channing Ward, can you say that actually improved at all under Wommack's coaching?
Posted on 10/25/16 at 3:34 pm to Billy Mays
B
Defensive player development is on Wommack.
Defensive player recruitment is on Wommack. But, ultimately, its ALL on Freeze so he needs to pull the trigger. Do you honestly think our D gets better next year?
quote:
ridges and Gates (both 4-star guys) have gone from solid contributors to negative players
Defensive player development is on Wommack.
quote:
These are not 5-star players, so the production you are getting is close to correct.
Defensive player recruitment is on Wommack. But, ultimately, its ALL on Freeze so he needs to pull the trigger. Do you honestly think our D gets better next year?
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