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re: The Gaza land invasion (Day 46) ...
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:28 pm to Spaceman Spiff
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:28 pm to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
The problem with that, missiles and bombs won't do all that much. An example is our drone strikes in Pakistan...same thing, poor result. Kill a few but other than that...
Uhhhhh the drone program is one of the most successful military endeavors known to man. The vast majority of Al-Qaeda was wiped out with drones. That's one of the reasons we've had so few casualties -- we don't need to be present to actually kill our enemies. Being a drone pilot is also much less taxing than being an actual pilot.
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Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:31 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
The Middle East has to reject Radical Islam. Us doing it just pushes the problem down the road.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:36 pm to Duke
quote:
The Middle East has to reject Radical Islam. Us doing it just pushes the problem down the road.
Really, the rest of the world needs to start sectioning itself off from relying on America spearheading everything.
Europe needs to handle Ukraine once and for all, and use force if necessary.
The Middle East needs to form a coalition and help out Iraq -- anything as opposed to ISIS which has repeatedly stated it wants to remake the Caliphate is better. I'd even accept Al-Qaeda over ISIS at this point.
I don't think the American people can stomach fixing everything for everyone anymore.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:41 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
When it comes to rejecting an idea, you can't just force it. It's an organic process.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:43 pm to Duke
quote:
When it comes to rejecting an idea, you can't just force it. It's an organic process.
Honestly, I can see ISIS as an alluring job for a lot of Middle East folk. But rejecting radical Islam? I have doubts.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:46 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
Carpet bombing the strip with conventional munitions until there isn't anything left alive on the surface would do a lot to assist with repopulation of the area with more desirable inhabitants. Sure, you aren't going to kill all of the fighters, but you'll get most of the women and children and destroy Hamas's ability to continue the population and replace fallen fighters. Close the area off and re-treat the area every few months to get any stragglers, then let it lie fallow for about 2-3 decades. After a period of time, sweep in and round up the aged fighters who will largely be unable to resist at this point. You can intern them, or do whatever you feel is needed. Now the area should be ripe for re-colonization with minimal risk of unexploded munitions and hidden fighters.
Of course, that's only possible with a complete disregard for human life or morals. So basically what a lot of countries accuse Israel of having.
Of course, that's only possible with a complete disregard for human life or morals. So basically what a lot of countries accuse Israel of having.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:47 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
But rejecting radical Islam? I have doubts.
You should. Hell I do.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:52 pm to cokebottleag
Drones have something like a 90% militant mortality rate. The majority of civilian casualties come after the initial strike when they come to help those who have been hit -- and generally they arrive in unmarked vans so there's absolutely no way to identify who they are.
Israel, for all of its "surgical" strikes can't seem to keep the civilian casualty rate under 50% -- even if a group is using civilians as shields, there's no excuse for it to ever be over 70% especially in a small nation like Palestine. Finding, identifying and eliminating targets should be much easier for "the strongest military in the Middle East".
Israel really doesn't focus on drone warfare yet, but I guarantee their strikes would be much better if they were using them. Conventional munitions just don't have high success rates anymore.
Israel, for all of its "surgical" strikes can't seem to keep the civilian casualty rate under 50% -- even if a group is using civilians as shields, there's no excuse for it to ever be over 70% especially in a small nation like Palestine. Finding, identifying and eliminating targets should be much easier for "the strongest military in the Middle East".
Israel really doesn't focus on drone warfare yet, but I guarantee their strikes would be much better if they were using them. Conventional munitions just don't have high success rates anymore.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:59 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
Really, the rest of the world needs to start sectioning itself off from relying on America spearheading everything.
This is a bit of a double edged sword. One of the main reasons the USA enjoys such a sweeping Casa Belli on whoever angers us is that we are the only policeman. We have trade freedoms we don't even realize we have thanks to the world's most powerful navy. No American ships are being harassed by other navies, American shipping and commerce is respected and protected, as well as the commerce of our allies. This doesn't happen to North Korea, or Iran, or Cuba, or any other nation we deem fit.
If the shoe is on the other foot, it is a really, really bad thing.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:01 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
Israel, for all of its "surgical" strikes can't seem to keep the civilian casualty rate under 50% -- even if a group is using civilians as shields, there's no excuse for it to ever be over 70% especially in a small nation like Palestine. Finding, identifying and eliminating targets should be much easier for "the strongest military in the Middle East".
Yeah I don't agree with that. You're comparing drone strikes in a largely open rural environment (Afghanistan/Pakistan) to very dense urban combat where the enemy force is intentionally using habitation areas to draw fire of Israeli munitions. Gaza is almost universally a very DENSE urban terrain; even if you compare to Iraq, there were few if any drone strikes conducted in urban areas; most were rural or in spares suburban areas.
Its apples to oranges.
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:03 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
This is a bit of a double edged sword. One of the main reasons the USA enjoys such a sweeping Casa Belli on whoever angers us is that we are the only policeman. We have trade freedoms we don't even realize we have thanks to the world's most powerful navy. No American ships are being harassed by other navies, American shipping and commerce is respected and protected, as well as the commerce of our allies. This doesn't happen to North Korea, or Iran, or Cuba, or any other nation we deem fit.
If the shoe is on the other foot, it is a really, really bad thing.
Having a huge, technological navy is one thing -- spending trillions of dollars to clean up other countries with no return is another. We rebuilt Iraq and Afghanistan, installed people we wanted, and they automatically reverted to the way they were when we started to pack up and ship out.
The fact is: Other countries need to stand up and quell the chaos, because when we do it nothing gets accomplished.
Yes to the Navy, no to country forming.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:13 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
Having a huge, technological navy is one thing -- spending trillions of dollars to clean up other countries with no return is another. We rebuilt Iraq and Afghanistan, installed people we wanted, and they automatically reverted to the way they were when we started to pack up and ship out.
The fact is: Other countries need to stand up and quell the chaos, because when we do it nothing gets accomplished.
Yes to the Navy, no to country forming.
Nation building doesn't happen in ten years. It happens in 50. People forget that South Korea (and Japan) was economically indistinguishable from North Korea in 1960. It wasn't until decades after American occupation had started that they began to really get their shite together. The same was true for Germany, just on a quicker scale. We destroyed Iraq with the embargo and then came in and invaded the place and tore down all of their national systems, at least the ones that remained. The country was in total shambles; I think the Embargo really did the majority of the damage, not the war. Iraq would have been a shithole compared to the DCR in 2002. We treated Iraq like it was gulf war 1 and they were Kuwait; ready to get back on their feet as soon as we took Saddam out of power. In reality we under-estimated the squalor we put them in. They are still going to be recovering from it 30 years from now. They may never recover.
Country forming has created some really strong allies for us, it just takes several generations of willpower to do it and we don't have it in us as a people anymore.
Democracy was a mistake to introduce and we paid for it, but leaving at all was a second, bigger mistake.
On the Navy subject: In order to maintain a worldwide presence, secure naval bases are required. For secure naval bases overseas, secure, friendly nations are needed. For that, well, you see where I'm going with this.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:15 pm to Duke
quote:it would be easier to just blow them up than hope they decide to be peaceful
The Middle East has to reject Radical Islam. Us doing it just pushes the problem down the road.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:25 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
Nation building doesn't happen in ten years. It happens in 50. People forget that South Korea (and Japan) was economically indistinguishable from North Korea in 1960.
This is apples and landmines.
South Korea and Afghanistan are nothing alike whatsoever with completely different ideologies. We didn't help one side win a civil war and stay there forever. Unless Afghanistan and Iraq take different measures, they will likely keep having the same problems fifty years from now.
quote:
On the Navy subject: In order to maintain a worldwide presence, secure naval bases are required. For secure naval bases overseas, secure, friendly nations are needed. For that, well, you see where I'm going with this.
There isn't a place in the world we can't launch quickly from -- and it came from countries with different environments than Iraq and Afghanistan.
These are not countries that can be won by injecting money into their systems. Do you have any idea what the average ISIS soldier makes a month?
That area is better left with brutal tactics rather than trying to win them over with candy.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 4:45 pm to heartbreakTiger
Since we're a civilized people, we'll just be forced to take the hard road.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 4:48 pm to Duke
the hard road doesn't work. its a long road that leads to dead u.s teens and plenty of wasted money. The hbt road would lead to great economic expansion
Posted on 8/4/14 at 9:28 am to Duke
1821 dead later, and people are bored with the topic, as I stated earlier. Shiny new stories come along like the Ebola thing and this is largely a yawner for the public.
Posted on 8/4/14 at 9:33 am to Alahunter
A carpet bombing of Gaza would get people's attention still, which was the point of the PR discussion.
To your point, our ADD culture can't stay focused on a real story for more than a week. An airplane disappears or some white girl got kidnapped, sure months of coverage. Complicated politics in a difficult region...let's talk about something more light hearted like Ebola.
To your point, our ADD culture can't stay focused on a real story for more than a week. An airplane disappears or some white girl got kidnapped, sure months of coverage. Complicated politics in a difficult region...let's talk about something more light hearted like Ebola.
Posted on 8/4/14 at 9:40 am to Duke
A pretty high up and advisor to Netanyahu is calling for concentration camps now and for Gaza to be returned fully to the Israeli's. The boredom from the public is to gloss over this now. Like I said earlier, it's quite easy for the world to look the other way on anything if it doesn't directly affect them. I may garner some attention, but in the end... everyone is too fat and lazy to worry about anyone else until they are affected.
Posted on 8/4/14 at 9:46 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
South Korea and Afghanistan are nothing alike whatsoever with completely different ideologies. We didn't help one side win a civil war and stay there forever. Unless Afghanistan and Iraq take different measures, they will likely keep having the same problems fifty years from now.
I'm not saying they are alike in any respect other than they are both nations we went into and conducted 'nation building'. There are significant differences, but what I'm trying to say is that if you are going into ANY country to 'nation build', it isn't a 10 year thing. No country has ever been successfully occupied and built in less than 50 years. If you aren't steady for at least a full generation, it really isn't nation building at all, its just an invasion and retreat. What we did was go into a country willfully ignorant of what it has historically taken to build a stable ally from the ground up, and instead expected everything to be hunky-dory cause 'we're America and they'll love us.'
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