re: Is Athens really that liberal?

Crimson that was a nice doubleheader of liberalism.

First you completely let the point that a person can be well educated and have a high IQ but yet be "dumb" in many other areas such as living in the real world. Then you go on to essentially say that lying is ok for a liberal because "everyone does it".

Doubt me? I'm sure you were one of those folks that defended GWB and his Harvard MBA when people called him "dumb" and I'm sure you defended anything you saw as a "lie" because all politicians are liars.

Of course the real truth is that education and intelligence don't necessarily coincide with effective leadership. Many of our strongest and most effective Presidents and Congressman had mediocre academic qualifications while some of our worst were intellectually brilliant. It also ignores the reality that just because you are a politician you do not need to be a liar or crook, nor should it just be tolerated as inevitable.

It does bring up the ultimate point about conservatism and libertarianism though, inherently even well intentioned government is either bad, horribly expensive and inefficient, or both. Thus the less of it the better.

quote:

---

It does bring up the ultimate point about conservatism and libertarianism though, inherently even well intentioned government is either bad, horribly expensive and inefficient, or both

---

So, was the passage of the 1965 Voting Rights Act bad or horribly expensive and inefficient?

quote:

---

Crimson that was a nice doubleheader of liberalism.

First you completely let the point that a person can be well educated and have a high IQ but yet be "dumb" in many other areas such as living in the real world. Then you go on to essentially say that lying is ok for a liberal because "everyone does it".

Doubt me? I'm sure you were one of those folks that defended GWB and his Harvard MBA when people called him "dumb" and I'm sure you defended anything you saw as a "lie" because all politicians are liars.

Of course the real truth is that education and intelligence don't necessarily coincide with effective leadership. Many of our strongest and most effective Presidents and Congressman had mediocre academic qualifications while some of our worst were intellectually brilliant. It also ignores the reality that just because you are a politician you do not need to be a liar or crook, nor should it just be tolerated as inevitable.

It does bring up the ultimate point about conservatism and libertarianism though, inherently even well intentioned government is either bad, horribly expensive and inefficient, or both. Thus the less of it the better.

---

Elizabeth Warren is not a "dumb bitch". You seem to want to expand this to all sorts of conversations, but my response was to the Vol fan calling her a dumb bitch. "Dumb bitches" don't have high IQ's and earn graduate degrees from top universities.

quote:

---

you probably can't stand the idea of Obama sitting in the White House and you "want your country back".

---

So anyone that dislikes Obama as a president is lumped into the ignorant group?


Errybody painting with broad strokes today

quote:

---

So anyone that dislikes Obama as a president is lumped into the ignorant group?

---

I expected this one. Slow down and break down my statement logically.

I did not say that "everyone who dislikes Obama dislikes him because he is black." I said that if you ARE one of those people, you probably can't stand the idea of him in the White House and you want your country back.

Klansmen are not liberals. That's a fact. If I tried to say that since klansmen are conservative then all conservatives are klansmen, that would be a logical fallacy and factually wrong.

The only issue I have with the Voting Rights and Civil Rights Acts is they should have been Constitutional Amendments. Both were great laws and needed reforms but the way they were enacted technically violated other parts of the Constitution. Of course the same could be said for most of the New Deal. The problem with enacting laws that are unconstitutional is it devalues the entire Constitution and the protections that it contains. As it is now the Constitution is really more of a symbolic document than the highest law of the land because legislators and judges ignore provisions of it because they feel it is "the right thing" so often. Few things are as dangerous as a government that ignores the Rule of Law.

Once again on Warren you are making the argument that simply because a person has an impressive degree and IQ (which we don't know for sure on Warren btw, it is just assumed) that they cannot be a "dumb bitch". "Dumb bitch" is a subjective term. Certainly just about any woman could be classified as a "bitch", the term only means female dog. As for "dumb" there are all kinds of ways to evaluate a person being "dumb". Academic intelligence is only one measure. In many ways even Albert Einstein was oblivious to the real world and did many things that would be considered "dumb". The issue is that you seem to think only your definition of "dumb" matters which is fine in your own context but when assuming that others define it the same way it only reflects poorly on you and shows only your close mindedness and arrogance.

Warren openly advocates that no one is self made and that anyone that has success is obligated to pay massive taxes and "pay back" society. She also seems to think that most people wouldn't bother to verify the fact she was not a Native American as she claimed. Unless you are a liberal most would consider both of those "dumb" and because those beliefs are arrogant and inconsiderate of others many would also consider a person who thinks those things to be a "bitch".

quote:

---

Klansmen are not liberals. That's a fact. If I tried to say that since klansmen are conservative then all conservatives are klansmen, that would be a logical fallacy and factually wrong.

---

Just like saying all liberals are commies. It adds nothing to the discussion. People often forget we are all on the same team and I think most people that take the time to vote want what we feel is best for our children and for our country. Obviously everyone has an inherent bias based on background but it's never as simple as the label people try to apply. American politics has become such a distasteful thing.

quote:

---

She also seems to think that most people wouldn't bother to verify the fact she was not a Native American as she claimed.

---

I don't know enough of the details to discuss that intelligently, to be honest. She may have lied, I don't think this is good evidence that she is "dumb". But I will research it so I can speak to it next time.

Your other argument is inflated, in my opinion, but has some legitimacy so I will respond in segments:

quote:

---

Warren openly advocates that no one is self made

---

She does say this, and I agree, just as I agreed with Obama when he said "you didn't build that". This does NOT mean that everyone's accomplishments mean nothing. It DOES mean that nobody in this country accomplished what they have without relying in part on what was provided to them. If nothing else, public roads provide the means of transporting everything, and the military in combination with local police ensure that what you build is not immediately taken away by someone stronger.

quote:

---

anyone that has success is obligated to pay massive taxes and "pay back" society.

---

I would not consider her tax proposals "massive". She wants to ensure that corporations actually pay their tax responsibility, especially since most large corporations now are multinational and take advantage of our infrastructure and property/intellectual property laws, while moving the workforce overseas and doing everything possible to avoid paying US taxes on their profits.

The phrase "pay back society" is not one that I have heard her use.

Like Warren, I do not understand why a person should pay higher taxes on income that comes from work and wages, and lower taxes on income that comes from investments and speculation.

Now you are saying that she isn't dumb because you agree with her. That's fine but it is an opinion. She is a social contract liberal, meaning that she feels that it is an obligation of those who are successful to pay taxes to help out those who are not successful, essentially wealth redistribution. That's fine, however in order to hold that opinion you are essentially saying you know how to spend someone else's money better than they do and thus they should have to pay you voluntarily or involuntarily.

As for the point on why income is taxed differently than investments the reason is that higher taxes on investments discourages investment and thus it has a negative effect on the economy. It also sends companies that make investments to choose to go to other states or countries that have lower taxes. It's basic capitalism and something a person like Warren can't grasp. People and companies do things in their self interest and trying to change that basic law of humanity rarely works, on a macro scale where you are trying to run a country it is assured not to work.

FWIW, the best tax system is not an income tax at all but a Sales or Consumption tax. That type of tax is the least expensive to administer and results in the largest revenues while maximizing personal freedom and choice.

Income taxes are easily manipulated and they encourage bad behaviors. The value to them is in the amount of control they give the government in administering them. If a government can force people to report their income it gives them control over those people. It also gives the government almost limitless powers to manipulate income taxes to reward or penalize behavior based on the whims of those in government. By your own admission many legislators are dishonest so why it makes sense to give those people such broad reaching powers assuming they will do what is in the best interests of the people instead of their self interest is naive at best or could even be called "dumb".

quote:

---

it's all about profits and any intelligent businessman or woman will always make the smart decision

---

This is exactly right, which is why it amazes me that people still believe in trickle down economics. If a company can save money by shipping jobs overseas and manipulating the tax code, they are going to do it REGARDLESS of their tax "burden".

We ALL have a tax "burden". This is one issue that I would always agree with republicans/libertarians - we should ALL pay a share of the taxes. Whether it's a flat rate, or a use tax, or whatever makes the most sense, we can't continue to sustain a government where the poorest and the richest pay next to nothing.

I would be completely in favor of a flat tax rate shouldered by everyone, including the poor, if it did not give advantages to those who make money from their money rather than their labor. In other words, capital gains are not different from wages when it comes to taxes...it's all income.