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re: I want God to be real.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:23 am to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:23 am to Roger Klarvin
Finally, Kraus appears with his laughable 'nothing' view. You do realize that Krauss isn't offering "nothing" don't you?
Krauss book review
All you have to do is offer an example of a naturalistic mechanism creating that from which the universe was created. Nothing within the naturalistic world can do such a thing.
Again, this isn't about something creating something from nothing, which is in itself a supernatural view, this is one step further.....it's about nothing creating something from nothing.
Krauss book review
quote:
First, I never said it happened that way. I was illustrating the absurdity of claiming the universe must exist due to a supernatural cause. The fact is that you believe it has a supernatural cause, and that there is no other possible explanation, because you lack both the desire and the knowledge to believe anything else.
All you have to do is offer an example of a naturalistic mechanism creating that from which the universe was created. Nothing within the naturalistic world can do such a thing.
Again, this isn't about something creating something from nothing, which is in itself a supernatural view, this is one step further.....it's about nothing creating something from nothing.
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Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:29 am to beejon
I read in an ancient text distributed by the catholic church that the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. So that there science is a bunch of liars if they think they can disprove that. If it was meant to be learnt it was written in a book a long long time ago. Anyone else that thinks differently is a god damn terrorist.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:29 am to KSGamecock
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Empty space, which for many people is a good first example of nothing, is actually unstable. Quantum mechanics will allow particles to suddenly pop out of nothing and it doesn't violate any laws of physics.
There is no such thing as empty space.
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Quantum mechanics will allow particles to suddenly pop out of nothing and it doesn't violate any laws of physics.
No it doesn't. 'Quantum soup' isn't nothing.
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Just the known laws of quantum mechanics and relativity can produce 400 billion galaxies each containing 100 billion stars and then beyond that it turns out when you apply quantum mechanics to gravity, space itself can arise from nothing, as can time.
That's not a example of nothing producing something from nothing. Nor is it an example of something producing something from nothing.
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It seems impossible but it's completely possible and what is amazing to me is to be asked what would be the characteristics of a universe that came from nothing by laws of physics. It would be precisely the characteristics of the universe we measure.
There is no universe which came from nothing.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:33 am to beejon
Look at you, talking about quantum mechanics like you aren't reading straight off of Wikipedia as you respond. 
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:39 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Look at you, talking about quantum mechanics like you aren't reading straight off of Wikipedia as you respond.
Why not just address the content?
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:40 am to beejon
quote:
Finally, Kraus appears with his laughable 'nothing' view. You do realize that Krauss isn't offering "nothing" don't you?
Krauss book review
Two points...
1: I find it interesting that you link a review by David Albert, primarily because Albert is an avowed atheist who himself has put out multiple papers on the absurdity of an eternal creator existing without a cause. I suspect that the list of things he has ever written that you would agree with begins and ends with this review.
2: Albert was ripped by the vast majority of people in the field as his review contains both blatant falsehoods regarding quantum mechanics and argues against things that Krauss didn't even put in the book. His writings in general are widely criticized as pseudoscience.
So congrats, you attempted to refute a book and a lecture you have never read/seen by someone largely considered by his peers to be a hack and who would disagree with the premise which you are using his review to support.
That's some "Ryan Reynolds in Green Latern" type fail there.
This post was edited on 1/19/15 at 12:43 am
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:44 am to beejon
quote:
Why not just address the content?
Because you are so obviously copy/pasting from the first page of your "quantum mechanics" Google search results.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:47 am to BlackPawnMartyr
Did you know that the Bible was written by Jews?
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:49 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Two points...
1: I find it interesting that you link a review by David Albert, primarily because Albert is an avowed atheist who himself has put out multiple papers on the absurdity of an eternal creator existing without a cause. I suspect that the list of things he has ever written that you would agree with begins and ends with this review.
This theological stance isn't the issue in this case. The point was that he correctly identified the weaknesses in Krauss' guesses and suppositions.
quote:
2: Albert was ripped by the vast majority of people in the field as his review contains both blatant falsehoods regarding quantum mechanics and argues against things that Krauss didn't even put in the book. His writings in general are widely criticized as pseudoscience.
So congrats, you attempted to refute a book and a lecture you have never read/seen by someone largely considered by his peers to be a hack and who would disagree with the premise which you are using his review to support.
That's some "Ryan Reynolds in Green Latern" type fail there.
Bottom line, Krauss' 'nothing' wasn't 'nothing' after all.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:50 am to KSGamecock
Ive read a few articles on the linguistic studies of different books from The Bible. Some pretty interesting stuff was revealed.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:51 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Because you are so obviously copy/pasting from the first page of your "quantum mechanics" Google search results.
Nope. I have no idea what the first page of "quantum mechanics" Google search results says. Not that I would be adverse to copying and pasting from there.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:52 am to KSGamecock
BTW what would Jesus think of the song bird death gauntlet in your signature. 
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:52 am to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
Ive read a few articles on the linguistic studies of different books from The Bible. Some pretty interesting stuff was revealed.
You ever heard of Michael Heiser and his linguistic studies of the bible?
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:53 am to beejon
quote:
There is no such thing as empty space.
A vacuum space exists absent any particles or any substance which you would qualify as "something". It's only requirement is the space itself and that space exists at essentially an infinitely low energy state. By any practical definition, it is empty space.
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No it doesn't. 'Quantum soup' isn't nothing.
Quantum fluctuations transiently produce "quantum soup", not the other way around.
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There is no universe which came from nothing.
Not only do you have no way of knowing this, you would have us believe that an infinitely complex and omniscient deity exists in an eternal state with no beginning and without a first cause.
The saddest thing is you will read that and it wont sound the slightest bit silly to you.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:56 am to beejon
quote:
Bottom line, Krauss' 'nothing' wasn't 'nothing' after all.
I can see how someone would think that if all they ever read was that review. The problem is that the premise of the review rests largely upon straw men.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 12:58 am to beejon
Just jumping in, but the idea of god can really help some people. Just having something to believe in is enough. It makes them relinquish control of their own lives and trust in a higher power that is "in control."
Posted on 1/19/15 at 1:00 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
A vacuum space exists absent any particles or any substance which you would qualify as "something". It's only requirement is the space itself and that space exists at essentially an infinitely low energy state. By any practical definition, it is empty space.
Nope, dark matter and dark energy isn't 'nothing'.
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Quantum fluctuations transiently produce "quantum soup", not the other way around.
There has to be something in which to fluctuate.
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Not only do you have no way of knowing this, you would have us believe that an infinitely complex and omniscient deity exists in an eternal state with no beginning and without a first cause.
The saddest thing is you will read that and it wont sound the slightest bit silly to you.
I guess "silly" is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing producing something from nothing is silly to some, not to others. In any case, nothing producing something from nothing is a supernatural view.
First cause is present independent of one's theological view.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 1:01 am to BlackPawnMartyr
quote:
Ive read a few articles on the linguistic studies of different books from The Bible. Some pretty interesting stuff was revealed.
Indeed, they really shed light on just how silly the average believers ideas about the Bible and it's history are. The simplistic way with which we as a culture (not just the religious) teach our kids about the Bible and it's translations, meanings and origins is both a disservice and a relic of a culture largely based around the belief that the contents of that book are the most important things ever written.
The average American couldn't even tell you what language the New Testament was originally written in, let alone the methods and processes used to ultimately produce the KJV we read from on Sunday morning. I mean, tens of millions of people still actually believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament around 1800 BC
This post was edited on 1/19/15 at 1:02 am
Posted on 1/19/15 at 1:03 am to Stonehog
quote:
Just jumping in, but the idea of god can really help some people. Just having something to believe in is enough. It makes them relinquish control of their own lives and trust in a higher power that is "in control."
Yes, I believe that believing that one's existence is more than the result of only a random/chance, meaningless, mindless, purposeless and goalless naturalistic mechanism producing them has personal benefits.
Posted on 1/19/15 at 1:05 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Indeed, they really shed light on just how silly the average believers ideas about the Bible and it's history are. The simplistic way with which we as a culture (not just the religious) teach our kids about the Bible and it's translations, meanings and origins is both a disservice and a relic of a culture largely based around the belief that the contents of that book are the most important things ever written.
The average American couldn't even tell you what language the New Testament was originally written in, let alone the methods and processes used to ultimately produce the KJV we read from on Sunday morning. I mean, tens of millions of people still actually believe Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament around 1800 BC
Yes, it's a sad commentary of the state of Christianity.
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