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Posted on 1/18/15 at 5:31 pm to Kentucker
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An uncaused first cause? That's gibberish. Actually, nothing you said makes sense.
No, it's no gibberish, it's simply a fact. There is a cause for everything, other than the first cause for everything. It was uncaused.
Theist or atheist, there is a first cause which wasn't caused and which was supernatural.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 5:37 pm to CatFan81
quote:
Yes. You got a problem with that?
Well, other than not embracing that particular view.
You are aware that the person who first presented The Flying Spaghetti Monster did not believe it existed, that the view was satire a mockery of theists, don't you? Why would you believe The Flying Spaghetti Monster was an actual being when the creator of the fictitious being didn't believe it himself?
Posted on 1/18/15 at 5:37 pm to Tigerwaffe
Posted on 1/18/15 at 5:41 pm to beejon
Ummmmm..... 
Posted on 1/18/15 at 6:51 pm to beejon
quote:
No, it's no gibberish, it's simply a fact. There is a cause for everything, other than the first cause for everything. It was uncaused.
Oh, hey, beejon. How you doing, buddy? Your new avatar threw me.
Okay, we'll go with cause and effect being suspended to start the Universe because it makes so much sense.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 6:55 pm to beejon
quote:
No, it's no gibberish, it's simply a fact. There is a cause for everything, other than the first cause for everything. It was uncaused.
Theist or atheist, there is a first cause which wasn't caused and which was supernatural.
Alright here's the thing: We don't know very much about the beginning of the universe right now. There doesn't necessarily need to be a "cause" in the way you define it. The universe could very well be cyclical.
We've never observed nonexistence so we can equally assume that the universe has always existed -- supernaturally.
You can contort any God into the role as creator but -- why do we assume it's supernatural? It could be just as quantifiable as any of us. Could be an evil creator. Could be an incompetent creator.
I just don't know why you're so quick to call a creator a God in the same way natives saw the Spaniards.
Let's wait for some answers before using Jesus on Toast as our barometer.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:06 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
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Let's wait for some answers before using Jesus on Toast as our barometer.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:13 pm to Kentucker
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Oh, hey, beejon. How you doing, buddy? Your new avatar threw me.
Sorry, didn't mean to be confusin'.
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Okay, we'll go with cause and effect being suspended to start the Universe because it makes so much sense.
I don't think cause and effect was suspended in the creation of the universe. Something caused it....something supernatural.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:22 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
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Alright here's the thing: We don't know very much about the beginning of the universe right now. There doesn't necessarily need to be a "cause" in the way you define it. The universe could very well be cyclical.
Wouldn't matter if it were cyclical. Something caused the first cycle.
quote:
We've never observed nonexistence so we can equally assume that the universe has always existed -- supernaturally.
The view of an Aristotelian eternal universe was pretty well put to bed with the big bang view.
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You can contort any God into the role as creator but -- why do we assume it's supernatural? It could be just as quantifiable as any of us. Could be an evil creator. Could be an incompetent creator.
Anytime something which didn't have a cause produced something from nothing, that's supernatural. Unless someone could give an example of such a view within the constraints of the natural laws we observe.
The identification and nature of the creator is yet another issue.
quote:
I just don't know why you're so quick to call a creator a God in the same way natives saw the Spaniards.
Call it whatever you wish, God, the Force, the Creator....there still exists this prime mover, this uncreated creator.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:51 pm to beejon
quote:
Theist or atheist, there is a first cause which wasn't caused and which was supernatural.
You don't know what "supernatural" means.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:53 pm to beejon
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Call it whatever you wish, God, the Force, the Creator....there still exists this prime mover, this uncreated creator.
Nonsense, assigning a conscious intentional entity to the creation of the universe is just blind assumption rooted in nothing other than you own inability to comprehend or understand any other reason for existence.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 7:59 pm to Roger Klarvin
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You don't know what "supernatural" means.
"of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:01 pm to Roger Klarvin
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Nonsense, assigning a conscious intentional entity to the creation of the universe is just blind assumption rooted in nothing other than you own inability to comprehend or understand any other reason for existence.
Conscious or unconscious, there still exists an uncreated creator, first cause, prime mover.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:13 pm to CrimsonChin
Knock and it shall be open unto you, seek and it shall be given
This post was edited on 1/18/15 at 8:14 pm
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:26 pm to beejon
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"of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal."
Correct, now explain how you know that the universe did not begin as a product of natural processes.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 8:29 pm to beejon
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Conscious or unconscious, there still exists an uncreated creator, first cause, prime mover.
If matter was spontaneously generated by an inevitable occurrence produced by natural phenomenon that are not depended on existence, I would not consider that a "prime mover". And it certainly wouldn't be supernatural.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 9:53 pm to Roger Klarvin
I think the real question would be "how was all of the material that is in our universe somehow smashed together and smaller than a hydrogen atom before the big bang?" As far as I know we have never seen matter just pop into existence like the big bang.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 11:12 pm to CrimsonChin
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I want God to be real.
God may be real. Or Maybe not. Who knows? Don't waste your life worrying about it.
If there is a god, it, not he, will reveal itself if it feels the need too. The fact that it hasn't leads me to believe more in a diety than a god.
Don't stress over it. Search your soul and interpret what you feel and believe. Again, if there is a god, it will reveal itself to you in some way.
Posted on 1/18/15 at 11:33 pm to beejon
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Wouldn't matter if it were cyclical. Something caused the first cycle.
"Our means of receiving impressions are absurdly few, and our notions of surrounding objects infinitely narrow. We see things only as we are constructed to see them, and can gain no idea of their absolute nature. With five feeble senses we pretend to comprehend the boundlessly complex cosmos." - Lovecraft
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The view of an Aristotelian eternal universe was pretty well put to bed with the big bang view.
Under the assumption that the universe does not, in fact, collapse in on itself.
I once again refer to perception.
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Anytime something which didn't have a cause produced something from nothing, that's supernatural. Unless someone could give an example of such a view within the constraints of the natural laws we observe.
The identification and nature of the creator is yet another issue.
Depends on what you're talking about. Life can come from nonlife in the correct conditions.
But, I can hit you with the same thing: If we exist, how can you prove there was ever a nonexistence?
quote:
Call it whatever you wish, God, the Force, the Creator....there still exists this prime mover, this uncreated creator.
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