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re: Gary Johnson vs Donald Trump
Posted on 7/6/16 at 7:20 pm to Papplesbeast
Posted on 7/6/16 at 7:20 pm to Papplesbeast
quote:
Conservatives are every bit as authoritarian as liberals,
Again, Republican does not equal conservative. So when you're talking about Republicans you shouldn't call them conservatives.
Republicans are every bit as authoritarian as liberals. Conservatives are not.
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Posted on 7/6/16 at 7:47 pm to Weagle25
quote:
Again, Republican does not equal conservative. So when you're talking about Republicans you shouldn't call them conservatives.
Republicans are every bit as authoritarian as liberals. Conservatives are not.
Conservative is to Republican as liberal is to Democrat. If I had said conservatives were every bit as authoritarian as Democrats, you might have a point, but I didn't. Conservatives are every bit as authoritarian as liberals. As distasteful as that statement might be to you, it is a true statement.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 7:52 pm to Papplesbeast
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Conservative is to Republican as liberal is to Democrat. If I had said conservatives were every bit as authoritarian as Democrats, you might have a point, but I didn't
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because your statement at face value is completely stupid.
quote:
As distasteful as that statement might be to you, it is a true statement.
But it's not. Just because someone labels themselves a conservative does not mean they are one.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 8:06 pm to Weagle25
I'm staying home. There are no Conservatives and I'm done picking a lesser evil and done picking my poison.
Posted on 7/6/16 at 8:21 pm to Weagle25
quote:
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt because your statement at face value is completely stupid.
You are offended and you are lying to yourself. If you were honest with yourself you would realize that I am correct. You think the government imprisoning people for gambling, prostitution, and drugs is not authoritarian. You are wrong. Those are authoritarian conservative social policies.
quote:
But it's not. Just because someone labels themselves a conservative does not mean they are one.
Your argument is based upon the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
LINK
This post was edited on 7/6/16 at 8:24 pm
Posted on 7/6/16 at 8:59 pm to Papplesbeast
quote:
You are offended and you are lying to yourself
Offended by what exactly?
quote:
You think the government imprisoning people for gambling, prostitution, and drugs is not authoritarian
I don't think that.
There are Republicans (most of whom are not conservatives but think they are) and then there are conservatives. You're taking actions done by Republicans and automatically labeling that as an action by conservatives which is what I had issue with. They're two seperate things and you acknowledge that until you start using examples then you suddenly forget there's a difference.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 1:48 am to Weagle25
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Offended by what exactly?
Being compared to "libtards".
quote:
I don't think that.
You agree that it's authoritarian? Or do you want prostitution, gambling, and all drugs legalized?
quote:
There are Republicans (most of whom are not conservatives but think they are) and then there are conservatives. You're taking actions done by Republicans and automatically labeling that as an action by conservatives which is what I had issue with. They're two seperate things and you acknowledge that until you start using examples then you suddenly forget there's a difference.
There is a difference between Republicans and conservatives, but that difference is not what you think it is. Blaming non-conservative Republicans for every embarrassing policy is...typical. Conservatives go on and on about personal responsibility...when they're judging other people. When it comes to examining their own actions, they blame everyone else under the Sun.
Conservatives are socially authoritarian. They have always been socially authoritarian. They will always be socially authoritarian.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 2:18 am to Papplesbeast
quote:
Being compared to "libtards".
I actually agree with your point, I just think you're pointing it at the wrong people so no I'm not offended by it.
quote:
You agree that it's authoritarian? Or do you want prostitution, gambling, and all drugs legalized?
Well you framed your question wrong. My answer is yes to both. It's not an either or situation. If I'm not interfering with someone else's rights then the government should leave me alone. None of those three actions is me infringing on someone else's rights so I should be allowed to do them as I please.
quote:
There is a difference between Republicans and conservatives, but that difference is not what you think it is. Blaming non-conservative Republicans for every embarrassing policy is...typical. Conservatives go on and on about personal responsibility...when they're judging other people. When it comes to examining their own actions, they blame everyone else under the Sun.
For example?
Also care to share what you think the difference in Republicans and conservatives is since you think I'm wrong?
quote:
Conservatives are socially authoritarian. They have always been socially authoritarian. They will always be socially authoritarian.
Again I think you're thinking of people who like to think they're conservative until they actually think it through.
Just for reference, where are you on the scale? You think conservatism is stupid and you think liberalism is stupid. That only leaves moderate which is more authoritarian than conservatism.
This post was edited on 7/7/16 at 2:33 am
Posted on 7/7/16 at 7:43 am to Alahunter
quote:
There are no Conservatives
True conservatives are dying off and conservatism is progressing.
Some of the most conservative people today would be considered liberal 40 years ago, and the definition of conservative today will be very different in 25 years. Even more liberal IMO.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 8:14 am to boogiewoogie1978
True conservatives today are labeled right wing extremists who would have been normal R's 25 yrs ago. Today's R is Bill Clinton in the 90s. That's not progressing. That's becoming socialist and Government controlled.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 8:21 am to Alahunter
quote:
True conservatives today are labeled right wing extremists who would have been normal R's 25 yrs ago. Today's R is Bill Clinton in the 90s. That's not progressing. That's becoming socialist and Government controlled.
Why is it that I agree with you on so many things - except how to run the Bama board?? We could be friends in real life but I hate you here.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 10:10 am to Weagle25
quote:
Well you framed your question wrong. My answer is yes to both. It's not an either or situation. If I'm not interfering with someone else's rights then the government should leave me alone. None of those three actions is me infringing on someone else's rights so I should be allowed to do them as I please.
If you identify as a Conservative and you support legalization of all three, then you are rare. There are some conservatives who support legalizing gambling and pot, but prostitution and heroin? Let's just say you're even less likely to find one of those than you are to find a pro-lifer who identifies as liberal.
quote:
For example? Also care to share what you think the difference in Republicans and conservatives is since you think I'm wrong?
An example? Every time a black male is shot and killed by the police, conservatives defend the police officer. When right-wing separatists (a group many conservatives identify with) point loaded weapons at federal law enforcement officials, conservatives defend the separatists. Government violence is a good thing...as long as it's directed at the right type of people.
quote:
Again I think you're thinking of people who like to think they're conservative until they actually think it through.
Again, this is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. You don't get to disown self-identifying conservatives you disagree with any more than mainstream feminists get to disown man-hating radical feminists or Alabama fans get to disown fans who poison trees and sexually assault fans of other schools.
quote:
Just for reference, where are you on the scale? You think conservatism is stupid and you think liberalism is stupid. That only leaves moderate which is more authoritarian than conservatism.
There is no "scale" and there is no such thing as a "moderate".
Regarding "scales": those political ideology tests that put you into one box or another are as valid as IQ and personality tests. In other words, they are nonsense.
Regarding "moderates": virtually everyone holds some extreme views. The majority of people's extreme views tend to align with the "right" or the "left" (though, not perfectly), but not everyone's. The so-called moderates are actually just as extreme as anyone else, they just aren't easily categorized because they don't align with either political party. The media has grouped all of these difficult-to-define people into one group and has called them "moderates". This media creation has existed for so long that many people have simply accepted the idea that "moderates" are a thing that exist as true.
I am no "moderate". I just don't fit into a neatly into a box under the left/right wing paradigm. I'll give you a few examples of extreme views I hold:
1. When prosecutors withhold evidence from a defendant or his attorney, those prosecutors should receive the maximum penalty that the defendant would have gotten if convicted. I would even go so far to say that if a prosecutor railroads someone for capital murder (something that we know has happened many times in this country's history), that prosecutor should be executed. With the technology we have today, this is not an undue burden. Sharing information is very cheap and easy.
2. CEOs of large companies should be held fiscally (always) and criminally (sometimes) responsible for the conduct of their employees (while those employees are doing company work), regardless of their knowledge of their employees actions. Call it "the buck stops here".
3. The federal student loan program should either be abolished (everyone pays out of pocket) or a form of price control should be implemented. The price control would be something like: to continue to receive federal loan money, a particular school's tuition cannot increase until it reaches a certain (debatable) threshold. Once that threshold is reached, tuition would be indexed to inflation.
P.S. The definitions of "right" and "left" have also become so distorted that they mean almost nothing anymore. If you go back to the origin of the terms (the French revolution), the right-wing supported the status quo (royalty/nobles/etc) and the left-wing wanted to upset the status quo (commoners). Now? They're mostly used as a way to dismiss someone's argument without addressing its content. "He's just a right-wing nutjob" or "He's a leftist".
This post was edited on 7/7/16 at 10:18 am
Posted on 7/7/16 at 10:20 am to Alahunter
quote:
True conservatives today are labeled right wing extremists who would have been normal R's 25 yrs ago. Today's R is Bill Clinton in the 90s. That's not progressing. That's becoming socialist and Government controlled.
This country has moved to the left on social issues. But on economic issues, it has moved to the right over the last 30+ years. Libertarian philosophy has become far more popular.
This post was edited on 7/7/16 at 10:22 am
Posted on 7/7/16 at 11:38 am to Rebel Land Shark
quote:
#FeelTheJohnson
I thought the tagline was:
#FeelingTheJohnson
Posted on 7/7/16 at 11:44 am to CowTownReb
quote:
Elections are about the illusion of choice.
Couldn't have said it better myself. For most states (like mine) it doesn't really matter who I vote for. Tennessee is a deep Red state, and Trump will win the state regardless of who I (and other moderate conservatives) vote for. Note...there are a few battleground states in which this rule does not apply. In Tennessee:
If I vote for Trump...Trump will win the state.
If I vote for Hillary...Trump will win the state.
If I vote for Johnson...Trump will win the state.
With that being said, I am free to vote my conscience...and I'm voting for Johnson. Both of the major parties are running people that I would rather vote against than for. I want to send a message of the type of candidate that I will support...and hopefully get someone's attention for the next election.
#FeelingTheJohnson
Posted on 7/7/16 at 12:13 pm to Papplesbeast
quote:
If you identify as a Conservative and you support legalization of all three, then you are rare.
Umm no not really
quote:
Every time a black male is shot and killed by the police, conservatives defend the police officer. When right-wing separatists (a group many conservatives identify with) point loaded weapons at federal law enforcement officials, conservatives defend the separatists. Government violence is a good thing...as long as it's directed at the right type of people.
What a terrible example.
And you've still failed to explain what you think the difference in conservatives and Republicans is
quote:
Again, this is the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. You don't get to disown self-identifying conservatives you disagree with any more than mainstream feminists get to disown man-hating radical feminists or Alabama fans get to disown fans who poison trees and sexually assault fans of other schools.
So when a male claims he's a female, that means he's female? No.
If a white man tried to claim he's a black man, that means he's black? No
If a person says they are conservative and then when asked about policy on specific issues they have non-conservative stances, they are not conservative simply because that's what they label themselves as.
quote:
There is no "scale" and there is no such thing as a "moderate".
The whole Conservative vs. Liberal is a scale. There isn't a Conservative party and there isn't a liberal party. No one is completely conservative. No one is completely liberal. That's why it's a scale. There's no arguing around it. Everybody is somewhere on the scale.
quote:
Regarding "scales": those political ideology tests that put you into one box or another are as valid as IQ and personality tests. In other words, they are nonsense.
Scales do the exact opposite of putting someone in a box. That's the whole point of a scale. Political parties are what puts the person in a box.
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Regarding "moderates": virtually everyone holds some extreme views
Doesn't exclude them from being moderate.
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The so-called moderates are actually just as extreme as anyone else, they just aren't easily categorized because they don't align with either political party.
Again, we aren't even discussing political parties. Conservatism has absolutely nothing to do with a political party.
This post was edited on 7/7/16 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 7/7/16 at 1:18 pm to HogFanfromHTown
Gary Johnson wants open borders and said Hillary's email actions weren't criminal.
He is completely disqualified from my pool of candidates.
He is completely disqualified from my pool of candidates.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 1:33 pm to Papplesbeast
quote:
Let's just say you're even less likely to find one of those than you are to find a pro-lifer who identifies as liberal.
Biden is a liberal that is a pro-life catholic. He doesn't vote on it because that's not what is electorate wants but he has said he struggles with the idea.
I really dislike Biden but thought I'd point that out.
Posted on 7/7/16 at 2:02 pm to Weagle25
quote:
Umm no not really
According to a 2015 Pew Research Center poll, 65% of conservative Republicans oppose marijuana legalization. 32% support legalization.
LINK /
According to a 2015 YouGov poll, 34% of Republicans (not conservatives) support legalization of prostitution. 54% oppose legalization. If we had results for just conservatives, rather than Republicans, they would certainly skew even more toward opposing legalization.
LINK /
Similar data could be presented for other vices. The truth you are unwilling to face is that conservatives are the group that most strongly opposes legalizing vices.
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What a terrible example.
It's a terrible example, yet you fail to articulate why. Solid argument.
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And you've still failed to explain what you think the difference in conservatives and Republicans is
Why do I need to explain the difference? We both agree that the terms conservative and Republican are not interchangeable. There is, however, a significant amount of overlap. A Venn diagram would have two circles with at least 75% of the "conservative" circle intersecting with the Republican circle. The Republican circle would be larger, overall. Only about 50% of it would intersect with the "conservative" circle.
quote:
So when a male claims he's a female, that means he's female? No.
Are you seriously trying to compare biological traits to ideology?
Against my better judgment, I'll respond to this nonsense. If you are talking about biological sex, then you are correct. But biological sex is strictly and objectively defined. Conservatism is not. It's always changing.
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If a white man tried to claim he's a black man, that means he's black? No
This is a very weak example on many levels. First, you frame this as a dichotomy when it's anything but. Second, how do we judge whether someone is white or black? DNA? Skin color? There are albino Africans. Where do they fit into this dichotomy you have constructed? There are fair-skinned Americans whose DNA is 10-20% African (recent African ancestors), and there are dark-skinned Asians who have almost no African DNA. Between two people from those groups, who is more "black", the fair-skinned American with 10-20% African DNA or the dark-skinned Asian with less than 5% African DNA?
quote:
If I a person says they are conservative and then when asked about policy on specific issues they have non-conservative stances, they are not conservative simply because that's what they label themselves as.
Who gets to decide what the "conservative stance" is?
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The whole Conservative vs. Liberal is a scale. There isn't a Conservative party and there isn't a liberal party. No one is completely conservative. No one is completely liberal. That's why it's a scale. There's no arguing around it. Everybody is somewhere on the scale.
Scales are bunk because they assume you can totalize people's stances on issues into some sort of score. It's a bunk as the idea of privilege and intersectionality (the idea that you can totalize one's traits to determine how privileged or oppressed that person is.
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Scales do the exact opposite of putting someone in a box. That's the whole point of a scale. Political parties are what puts the person in a box.
Scales treat political stances as though they were mathematical variables that have commutative and associative properties. Ideology is far, far, far more complex than any such simplistic model could ever hope to analyze. That's why I compared them to pop psychology nonsense. They have the same value...none.
quote:
Doesn't exclude them from being moderate.
Uhh, actually it does. The definition of moderate is something that is near the average. It's the opposite of extreme. For example, the definition of a "moderate climate" is "neither too hot nor too cold". A moderate climate does not alternate between super cold and super hot. Those extremes exclude the climate from being classified as "moderate".
If someone holds extreme views, they are not moderate by definition.
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Again, we aren't even discussing political parties. Conservatism has absolutely nothing to do with a political party.
Conservatism has absolutely nothing to do with a political party? LOL. That's nonsense. Conservatives absolutely are aligned with the Republican party. To pretend that there is no connection between conservatism and the Republican party is absurd. I'm not saying that the two terms are interchangeable. They are not. The Republican party is bigger than conservatism. The GOP serves more than just the interests of conservatives. But just because the party sometimes does things you don't like doesn't mean that there is absolutely no connection between conservatism and the GOP.
Out of all the votes you cast at the federal level, how often do you vote for candidates that are not Republican? How often do you vote for the Democratic or Green Party candidate? How often do you vote for the Libertarian? Here's the thing, the overwhelming majority of conservative votes are cast for the Republican candidate. And you want to say there is absolutely no connection between conservatism and the GOP?
Posted on 7/7/16 at 2:04 pm to Dire Wolf
quote:
Biden is a liberal that is a pro-life catholic. He doesn't vote on it because that's not what is electorate wants but he has said he struggles with the idea.
I really dislike Biden but thought I'd point that out.
There are millions of conservatives who support gambling/prostitution/drug legalization. There just happens to be millions more who oppose them.
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