re: Ancient Qu'ran fragment may belie traditional history of Islam

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There were predictions in the old testament of a messiah being sent by God. Jesus claimed that position. Whether he was the actual messiah or not is the question...people will downvote this but it is a plausible theory that MEN like Jesus and Mohamed simply played on the people's deep religious beliefs and general stupidity for political purposes. Just look at the Mormons and how their denomination started..by a man who claimed to have talked with God.

I'm a firm believer in God, and I choose to follow the many teachings of Christianity because I believe they are morally correct. But I do question the legitimacy of organized religions.

All you have to do is ask yourself...what happened to the millions of people over the centuries who never had the opportunity to hear the Christian teachings? Do they burn in hell? That would not be a loving and Just God to do that, so I fail to adhere to the belief that Christianity is the only correct religion.

It's either there is the Judeo God, Yahweh, and the Messiah has yet to come (what Jews believe, and remember they are the chosen people of God) and Jesus, Mohamed, etc are all false prophets, or it's that God recognized that one religion couldn't spread across many different regions and cultures so he used many prophets in many areas to reach all people and teach the general concept of morality. All religions have a base teaching in the same moral concepts...the parts of Islam that advocate violence I believe are a direct manipulation that was done by man, not the word of God.

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Most logical post in this thread. Not likely to change. Have an upvote.

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The New Testament was written, what? Like 50-100 years after Jesus? Once like the Greeks were dispelling all the olds Gods for Jesus? How is the timeline off? I mean I don't doubt you, but your bias is probably extreme.

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The myths evolved over time. So talking about the myth of Attis of Phrygia as it is existed in 400 AD isn't helpful in examining to what degree the myth of Attis influenced Christian myth.

I follow JAT Robinson's dating of the NT (which is common sense) and puts the entirety of the NT within the 1st century or close.

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Just so we are getting this out of the way, are you claiming all these stories that parallel the myths of Jesus were written after the Bible? And none before? Would that really undermine your faith?

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No. No. No. The parallels aren't all that close if you actually read them. And comparing a resurrection story to another resurrection story doesn't damage my faith. That's a very surface-level comparison.

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if he wasn't resurrected

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If Christ was not resurrected, Christianity is of no value other than pragmatically. I don't see a value in that. I can match your condenscending attitude post for post if you care to continue.

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Which is just a written culture's bias against an oral culture. An oral culture actually has a greater degree of accuracy in preservation than a written one.

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And our record of Jesus is a written one. Records written for a particular audience. Matthew writes to the Jews. Luke to the gentiles.

It's not like the truth of the details or the individual stories really matter. Live to make people's lives better. Treat others as you want to be treated. That's all that really matters from the Jesus story.

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And our record of Jesus is a written one. Records written for a particular audience. Matthew writes to the Jews. Luke to the gentiles.

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Right. But the histo-Crits use the intervening time period to introduce uncertainty into the narratives (and presuppose a longer intervening period to allow the story to "coalesce" (and yes that's a lot of suppositions)) as you alluded to as well.

It doesn't really matter what is proved.
Followers will keep following blindly and calming this is a ploy against the nation of Islam or that you should have faith and this is just testing you.

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What's important is the philosophy of giving of your self for others. That's the point of the crucifixion. Jesus gives his whole self to the good of the world and is raised in glory because of his selflessness. That's a theme that threads all of the stories of Jesus.

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That's an interpretation. It is not the point of the resurrection.

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All you have to do is ask yourself...what happened to the millions of people over the centuries who never had the opportunity to hear the Christian teachings? Do they burn in hell? That would not be a loving and Just God to do that, so I fail to adhere to the belief that Christianity is the only correct religion.

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I agree with a lot of your post but just want to point out that many believers/preachers/Christian scholars/etc. claim that the Bible give basis for those who have never heard the gospel going to heaven anyways due to their ignorance. Same principle as children who are too young to understand

Whether that's true or not, I have no idea

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Even Catholic theology teaches a physical resurrection

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Lol

I'm quite aware of Catholic dogma on the subject. I'm not Catholic because I don't believe in a physical resurrection, among other things.

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Catholics don't know it because they don't read the Bible.

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Haha. My wife is Catholic, and she says that all the time.

I have problems with the Bible.

Q: Who wrote the Bible?

A: God.

Wrong. God didn't write the Bible. The Bible is a collection of stories which were written by men. 2000 years ago. Apparently.

Okay, so you're now going to say it was written by God through these men. 2000 years ago. Ok.

If you live by it, and by that I don't mean just going around reciting catchy verses and telling everyone "its my compass," you will be a good person. But take it for what it is: a collection of stories about morals written in the context of life in the middle east 2000 years ago.

Science actually made me religious. The shite I have learned about science has given me a such a profound respect for whatever made this universe possible.

I look around me and there is a damn four-legged, hairy thing walking around chasing bugs and shadows. That thing would do anything in the world for me, and vice versa. Then there is all of this shite just growing out of the ground, soaking up water, sucking in CO2, pissing out O2. And here's my dumb arse, a big bag of water, living off of that O2, with some fricking ions moving around that let me perceive all this shite around me.

Whatever made all this shite exist, is fricking crazy. Think about it: why is there anything? By the word anything, I mean why is there even a background for existence? You have to have some background for anything to exist? How the frick can anything exist without something to make it out of? No one can comprehend the shite that created this universe.

I look at all this crazy shite living around me. And then someone quotes the Bible to me to argue/explain something or give me direction in life. And they do it so casually, like it is the actual, recorded word of the actual "God" that put all of this complex shite into motion.

And every time that happens, I think to myself what a slap in the face it is to God/the Creator/whatever the force is, that created this universe.

People are so hung up on that book, when all you need to do is look around you.

shite is cool. Be a fricking honest, good person. Treat others how you want to be treated. Cherish the ones you love and the ones who love you.

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Mohammed was a violent, slave trading, pedophile who has been responsible for more misery on this planet than any single person in history.

Every generation that marries cousins shaves 8 points of their already fragile IQ. They are drooling lunatics. And they're getting worse.

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but I am a racist if I refer to them as "islamists"

right?