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Ancient Qu'ran fragment may belie traditional history of Islam
Posted on 9/1/15 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 9/1/15 at 1:09 pm
Fragments may predate Mohammed
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The radical suggestion from English scholars that the “Birmingham Koran” could be older than Propeht Muhammad contradicts the Islamic belief that Muhammad originated the Koran through revelations from Angel Gabriel and that in the early years of Islam Muhammad’s followers did not produce written portions of the Koran but memorized them and passed them down orally.
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This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence… rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.
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This would radically alter the edifice of Islamic tradition and the history of the rise of Islam in late Near Eastern antiquity would have to be completely revised, somehow accounting for another book of scripture coming into existence 50 to 100 years before, and then also explaining how this was co-opted into what became the entity of Islam by around AD700
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But the claim by English scholars that the age of the parchment could challenge the official version of the early history of Islam is being disputed by Muslim scholars who say that the only fact proved by the text is that the Koran has been preserved faithfully over the centuries.
According to Mustafa Sha from the School of Oriental and African Studies, “If anything, the manuscript has consolidated traditional accounts of the Koran’s origins.”
And he could be right because the carbon-dating range of 568 A.D. to 645 A.D. does not necessarily contradict the claim that the first revelation of the Koran to Muhammad occurred in 610 A.D., because the manuscript could in fact have been produced after 610 A.D.
However, it is believed that the first Muslim community was founded in 622 A.D. and that Caliph Abu Bakr ordered the first compilation of the Suras into a formal authoritative text only after Muhammad died.
The text was completed in 650-653 A.D under Caliph Uthman. Thus, if the Birmingham Koran was produced on or before 645 A.D. it confirms that written portions of the Suras had existed earlier than official Islamic history acknowledges.
This post was edited on 9/1/15 at 1:23 pm
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Posted on 9/1/15 at 1:52 pm to Nuts4LSU
Meh the datelines of the carbon dating and the traditional claims aren't far off. Basic human error could at at here rather than some new revelation.
If the carbon dating showed the fragments to be 2-300 years prior then they'd be on to something
If the carbon dating showed the fragments to be 2-300 years prior then they'd be on to something
Posted on 9/1/15 at 2:02 pm to deltaland
Carbon dating is witchcraft anyway
Posted on 9/1/15 at 2:10 pm to OBReb6
Mohammed was a violent, slave trading, pedophile who has been responsible for more misery on this planet than any single person in history.
Every generation that marries cousins shaves 8 points of their already fragile IQ. They are drooling lunatics. And they're getting worse.
Every generation that marries cousins shaves 8 points of their already fragile IQ. They are drooling lunatics. And they're getting worse.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 2:14 pm to deltaland
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Meh the datelines of the carbon dating and the traditional claims aren't far off.
It's more indicative about how Mohamed and his followers absorbed myths of the region at the time and consolidated them for their own convenience. Much like Jesus.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 2:18 pm to TeLeFaWx
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It's more indicative about how Mohamed and his followers absorbed myths of the region at the time and consolidated them for their own convenience. Much like Jesus.
What myths of the region did Jesus consolidate?
Posted on 9/1/15 at 2:26 pm to the808bass
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What myths of the region did Jesus consolidate?
Well... other than the Messianic ones? Glycon, Zoroaster, Attis of Perugia, and Horus.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 3:10 pm to Nuts4LSU
Allah = Satan
Mohammed is a FALSE prophet.
Mohammed is a FALSE prophet.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 3:11 pm to OBReb6
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Carbon dating is witchcraft anyway
Posted on 9/1/15 at 3:13 pm to the808bass
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What myths of the region did Jesus consolidate?
I don't know about Jesus, but his followers sucked up the Roman religious legends in order to make the Roman Catholic Church palatable to the intended audience.
All minor numerous gods who were in charge of something minor got traded out for Saints who were patrons of the same thing. Aesculapius the god of health and medicine got traded for Saint Luke the Evangelist the patron saint of physicians and surgeons. Major gods were traded with major religious figures or the Holy Trinity. For example the Virgin Mary (who in most Christian denominations has a minor role as Jesus's mom) became this prayed to near deity to fill the female religious gap left by Juno. The Holy Trinity was an obvious way to fill the gap left by the Capitoline Triad, by splitting a single God into three entities it allowed a monotheistic religion to have a polytheistic feel like Romans were used to.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 5:17 pm to the808bass
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What myths of the region did Jesus consolidate?
There were predictions in the old testament of a messiah being sent by God. Jesus claimed that position. Whether he was the actual messiah or not is the question...people will downvote this but it is a plausible theory that MEN like Jesus and Mohamed simply played on the people's deep religious beliefs and general stupidity for political purposes. Just look at the Mormons and how their denomination started..by a man who claimed to have talked with God.
I'm a firm believer in God, and I choose to follow the many teachings of Christianity because I believe they are morally correct. But I do question the legitimacy of organized religions.
All you have to do is ask yourself...what happened to the millions of people over the centuries who never had the opportunity to hear the Christian teachings? Do they burn in hell? That would not be a loving and Just God to do that, so I fail to adhere to the belief that Christianity is the only correct religion.
It's either there is the Judeo God, Yahweh, and the Messiah has yet to come (what Jews believe, and remember they are the chosen people of God) and Jesus, Mohamed, etc are all false prophets, or it's that God recognized that one religion couldn't spread across many different regions and cultures so he used many prophets in many areas to reach all people and teach the general concept of morality. All religions have a base teaching in the same moral concepts...the parts of Islam that advocate violence I believe are a direct manipulation that was done by man, not the word of God.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:01 pm to TeLeFaWx
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Well... other than the Messianic ones? Glycon, Zoroaster, Attis of Perugia, and Horus.
Congrats on your comparative religion class. Now ask for a refund. No, not really, (Phrygia) no, and no.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:02 pm to cardboardboxer
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I don't know about Jesus, but his followers sucked up the Roman religious legends in order to make the Roman Catholic Church palatable to the intended audience.
And?
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:13 pm to the808bass
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Congrats on your comparative religion class.
Never took one.
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Now ask for a refund. No, not really, (Phrygia) no, and no.
Yeah I didn't remember it. Sounded close enough.
And what's wrong with what I said? Well before Jesus's time, the virgin birth, the sacrifice, living in hell for three days, then resurrection, were common myths throughout the area. Jesus and his followers came around and consolidated them. What part of that are you doubting? That Bible is full of common fairy tales from the time period? It doesn't change a lot of the moral lessons in the Bible, it just changes the whole divine inspiration thing, which isn't that big of a deal.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:15 pm to the808bass
quote:
And?
And none of it was any more real than the Prophet Mohamed riding his horse Barack in to heaven.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:25 pm to deltaland
quote:
There were predictions in the old testament of a messiah being sent by God. Jesus claimed that position. Whether he was the actual messiah or not is the question...people will downvote this but it is a plausible theory that MEN like Jesus and Mohamed simply played on the people's deep religious beliefs and general stupidity for political purposes. Just look at the Mormons and how their denomination started..by a man who claimed to have talked with God.
I'm a firm believer in God, and I choose to follow the many teachings of Christianity because I believe they are morally correct. But I do question the legitimacy of organized religions.
All you have to do is ask yourself...what happened to the millions of people over the centuries who never had the opportunity to hear the Christian teachings? Do they burn in hell? That would not be a loving and Just God to do that, so I fail to adhere to the belief that Christianity is the only correct religion.
It's either there is the Judeo God, Yahweh, and the Messiah has yet to come (what Jews believe, and remember they are the chosen people of God) and Jesus, Mohamed, etc are all false prophets, or it's that God recognized that one religion couldn't spread across many different regions and cultures so he used many prophets in many areas to reach all people and teach the general concept of morality. All religions have a base teaching in the same moral concepts...the parts of Islam that advocate violence I believe are a direct manipulation that was done by man, not the word of God.
Great post. I'm surprised to see such logical thinking come from the Mississippi Delta. Guess my prejudice has been misplaced.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 6:47 pm to TeLeFaWx
quote:
Well before Jesus's time, the virgin birth, the sacrifice, living in hell for three days, then resurrection, were common myths throughout the area.
Glycon's myth involves a giant egg being cut open to birth a snake. Not sure how that parallels a "virgin birth." You also have some dating issues here, as Lucian of Samosata (well after Christ) is our primary literary source for information on the cult.
With Attis, you have a severe dating problem. The parts of the myth that are tied to Christ post-date the life of Christ. Nor was Attis known then as a virgin birth, unless you count an almond in the lap of a lady which came from a tree that Agdistis dumped his seed on which arose from Zeus banging a mountain. I totally see why that would get confused with the Virgin Mary story.
Horus, likewise, was not cast as a virgin birth. Isis had sex with a dead Osiris (the iconography backs that idea up) to get pregnant with Horus. Horus doesn't die ever, but does merge with the sun god Re where he is "reborn" every day.
This post was edited on 9/1/15 at 6:47 pm
Posted on 9/1/15 at 8:05 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
I don't know about Jesus, but his followers sucked up the Roman religious legends in order to make the Roman Catholic Church palatable to the intended audience.
The Romans are the ones who tied their religious traditions to Christianity, not the other way around. As the legend has it, Constantine had a dream where the p cross thingy symbol on his shield protected him in battle or something. He took this as he should convert. Since he was Emperor and all, everyone else had to convert too. So they keep similar holidays and traditions, just make them Jesusified.
It's good to remember how not unified the Church was at that point and would be for a long time. It's not until Attila drinks himself to death after a meeting with the Bishop of Rome that the Bishop of Rome became the one leader of the Church.
Of course who knows what of the Jesus legend is actual truth? Stories past from word of mouth over the years. The first Gospel was written around 30 years after the "death" of Jesus. That's a lot of games of telephone.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 8:26 pm to Duke
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That's a lot of games of telephone.
Which is just a written culture's bias against an oral culture. An oral culture actually has a greater degree of accuracy in preservation than a written one.
Posted on 9/1/15 at 8:42 pm to the808bass
quote:
Glycon's myth involves a giant egg being cut open to birth a snake. Not sure how that parallels a "virgin birth." You also have some dating issues here, as Lucian of Samosata (well after Christ) is our primary literary source for information on the cult.
With Attis, you have a severe dating problem. The parts of the myth that are tied to Christ post-date the life of Christ. Nor was Attis known then as a virgin birth, unless you count an almond in the lap of a lady which came from a tree that Agdistis dumped his seed on which arose from Zeus banging a mountain. I totally see why that would get confused with the Virgin Mary story.
Horus, likewise, was not cast as a virgin birth. Isis had sex with a dead Osiris (the iconography backs that idea up) to get pregnant with Horus. Horus doesn't die ever, but does merge with the sun god Re where he is "reborn" every day.
The New Testament was written, what? Like 50-100 years after Jesus? Once like the Greeks were dispelling all the olds Gods for Jesus? How is the timeline off? I mean I don't doubt you, but your bias is probably extreme.
Just so we are getting this out of the way, are you claiming all these stories that parallel the myths of Jesus were written after the Bible? And none before? Would that really undermine your faith?
Does the message of Jesus really change if he wasn't resurrected? The Sermon on the Mount, all that nice stuff, if Jesus didn't come back to life, and that was just a way to get the surrounding people in the region to believe, as the resurrection myth was vital to these pagans, does that really shake your faith? Are you going to simply reject any resurrection story that similar to the one you believe about Jesus if it came before hand? Is it really that vital to loving thy neighbor? Or Noah's Ark/the Garden of Eden being a fairy tale? What does that have to do with teaching you to forgive?
I think people get so hung up on blind denial or blind acceptance. I don't like atheists' beliefs because they don't believe in anything greater than themselves, and I don't like Christians' beliefs because they reject anything that doesn't make them comfortable and use archaic fairy tales to justify it. I think you fall in to the latter. Don't mean to profile, but I can see this is where this talk is going. The Bible was written so long after Jesus even walked around.
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