re: Question about Freeze and those coaches that wear their faith so openly

That Hugh Freeze wraps himself in the cloak of Christianity is merely a mechanism used to deflect blame for his professional misdeeds. He is still a liar and a cheat no matter how sacred and pure he would have us believe his morals are.

quote:

---

You do realize that the 10 commandments are not a Christian idea right? It's Jewish.

---

I totally realize that. In fact, it's the foundation for "The Law", the Jewish "rules and regulations", but I also realize that Jesus said in Mathew, "think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." You see that Christians and Jews both believe in Yahweh, or the one and only God.

quote:

---

You see that Christians and Jews both believe in Wahweh, or the one and only God.

---

...and muslims. All trace their roots to the pact made between god and Abraham.

Yep. I suspect there's more than a little irony involved there.

quote:

---

it's hard to walk away from something that you know is right,

---

And here is the crux of why either side won't budge. You know you're right because you think you're right. You are playing by a different set of rules.

And many people have an emotional investment in believing their religion. It frames their whole world-view and gives them promise of an afterlife. It is one side arguing from emotion and opinion versus another side arguing from reason and testable evidence. Those are two different arenas entirely.

And please don't take that the wrong way, many very religious people would agree that religion can defy reason or logic; it supersedes those things, it is beyond our understanding.

quote:

---

I figured I'd see you back here again. I tried to leave this no-win thread, too but it's hard to walk away from something that you know is right, but just can't prove in human terms. I guess that's why in John, Jesus said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

---

I popped in and looked at posts a bit. I really have no intention to get involved again. It does no good. I am set in my beliefs and non-believers, like Ash are set in theirs.

My biggest complaint is when different sets of criteria is used.

People like to point to Swaggert and Bakker and other less than sincere people to dismiss Christianity, yet when graft and lies and insincerity is pointed out in the scientific community....well, that's different.

You are right, though, when you feel strongly about a subject, it is hard to walk away. I see maybe one more post I might respond to, then I am going to try to not revisit this thread ever again.

quote:

---

And please don't take that the wrong way, many very religious people would agree that religion can defy reason or logic; it supersedes those things, it is beyond our understanding.

---

I appreciate what you say and I'm certainly not offended. I've lived nearly 70 years and they weren't all as a Christian...far from it. I didn't become a Christian because I fear death. I became a Christian because I, at some point, stepped back and examined my life and realized that I'm,only by the grace of God, still here. My life would make for one helluva book, and I'm not going into detail, but I will tell you that there came a time in my life when I went to God and we had a long conversation. I didn't walk away a devout Christian, but He did open my eyes to a lot of things that I hadn't wanted to see. To this day, I'm continuously amazed at how things worked out so well for me in my life that, when they happened, I thought were so terrible.
I certainly understand how solid facts should and do guide and direct us in our daily decisions(I was a business owner) , but there came a time in my life when I realized that there are some things that can't be "accounted" for (i.e. the love of family, sadness of losing someone you care for,certain things that make only you happy, etc.). I'm as comfortable with knowing that I live in a world that God made, as you are with your absolutes and proven ideas, so let's respect each other's ideologies and try to all get along.

PS-I many times read posts from young folks on here, and just chuckle to myself because I've already made the mistake that they're getting ready to make.

quote:

---

Belittling God is disrespecting me. You're the one trying to fit your own narrative.

---

No. It's not. You are not god. Just because you devote your life to someone doesn't mean that when they are disrespected, you are disrespected. That's not how it works.

I'm a scientist. If you said "science is full of crap", you would be disrespecting the aspects of science, not me.

This thread took a turn from a topic that was being discussed a few pages back. The discussion was on free will. I have a question regarding free will: What do we do about the verses and story lines in the Bible that seem to clearly contradict the concept of free will?

Take for instance Ephesians 2:1-2 "As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." --unless i am looking at it the wrong way, a dead person cannot do anything and has no free will

Jesus describes the process of salvation to Nicodemus in John 3 and says "you must be born again". None of us played any role in our physical birth and it seems that Jesus is clearly saying that the same is true for our spiritual birth. I suppose we could debate what exactly jesus meant by what he said to nicodemus but plain and simple he compares spiritual birth to physical birth and he did that for a reason.

Then take Romans 3:9-20

"For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:


“None is righteous, no, not one;

11
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.

12
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

13
“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”

14
“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”

15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16
in their paths are ruin and misery,

17
and the way of peace they have not known.”

18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."
-- These verses say that prior to us being born again, none of us by nature seek after God.

Then you have John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." --This seems to be saying we cannot approach God of our own accord or free will apart from some work of God in us that causes us to want to seek him

Ephesians 2:8-9- " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." faith is described as the "gift" of God. And this verse clearly says we are not saved by works. --so if we exercise our free will and choose to believe and those who remain unbelievers obviously do not, then couldn't you logically make the argument that that would lead to potential grounds for boasting?.

Predestination is a biblical term. It is mentioned in scripture and therefore I think it is worth exploring what it means.

Romans 9:15 quotes God as saying "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Not one human deserves to be saved. We were all born into this world spiritually dead because Adam was a representative for the entire human race and he sinned. Because Adam's sin is credited to all of us and because we all have also sinned, we are guilty in the sight of God. The punishment for sin is spiritual and physical death. It would not be unjust for God to not save a single person. In fact, it would be justice for him to destroy every person who has ever lived and will live and spare no one. The fact that even one person is saved is an act of mercy and grace by God.

As corny and churchy as this sounds, whatever God purposes to do, he does. Jesus says to Lazarus the dead man who is literally in the tomb "Come out" and what happens?...The dead man obeys. Jesus didn't wait for Lazarus to exercise his "free will" or cooperate with him in some way- Jesus commanded and what he commanded happened.

Even if you do believe in "free will", that still doesn't mean God is "fair" towards all men equally. Would you not agree that it is "unfair" that some people are born in America with a church on every corner and some people have been born into remote tribes in South America that never had the opportunity to see scripture in print or hear a sermon? Who determines where people are born and into what circumstances they are born? God does.

God is omnipotent meaning he is all powerful. When he wanted to create the world he spoke it into existence and when he spoke, things obeyed. God did not send his son Jesus who he had been in perfect union with from the beginning of time to come to earth as a human and live the perfect life keeping all the commandments and literally loving everyone he came into contact with perfectly (and loving God the father perfectly) to die on the cross so that he could sit idly by and hope that humans would take advantage of the sacrifice he provided. God purposed to save his people and he went to the cross and accomplished salvation and he effectually calls us out of our spiritual tombs and brings us into life. We are all by nature sinners and if it were up to us we would never choose God. He must initiate things to bring about life in spiritually dead people. This is the only scenario in which God gets all the glory and the sovereignty of God is rightly understood.