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re: So Tony Stewart ran over and killed another driver at a race last night
Posted on 8/11/14 at 8:35 am to h0bnail
Posted on 8/11/14 at 8:35 am to h0bnail
quote:
Speeds are slightly different.
That wasn't my point.
The point is that some here are acting like the kid getting out of the car was the first time something like that has ever happened. WHen, in fact, it happens every weekend somewhere in motorsports.
Like in the video I linked showing Tony Stewart getting out of his car on the track to confront another driver. WHich he's done many times.
1
Posted on 8/11/14 at 8:57 am to Jefferson Dawg
But, watching it again....the video of Stewart getting out of his car on track to confront the other driver shows something else that is very interesting.
Start it again at the 01:05 mark. LINK.....
And notice what the driver of the car does after Stewart reaches in his window. ......
The driver of the car guns it a little, doesn't he? (Although, they are at much slower speeds.)
Now.....read this quote from someone that actually witnessed the incident in New York on Saturday night..........
And, there you go. An "accident" in that he did not really intend to kill the man. But, not an "accident" in that Stewart never saw him. Or that he tried everything he could to get out of the way.
And another thought......... Maybe the "dimly-lit track" excuse that many are offering up for Stewart plays into the situation in a way they don't intend for it to. Maybe, if Stewart tried to speed up and send a message to this kid. Maybe the dimly-lit track contributed to him misjudging it and running him over. I don't know. THis thing is very bizarre.
Start it again at the 01:05 mark. LINK.....
And notice what the driver of the car does after Stewart reaches in his window. ......
The driver of the car guns it a little, doesn't he? (Although, they are at much slower speeds.)
Now.....read this quote from someone that actually witnessed the incident in New York on Saturday night..........
quote:
“I’ve seen it many times in NASCAR, where a driver will confront the other one, and a lot of times they’ll try to speed past them. And that’s what it appeared to me as if what Tony Stewart did, he tried to speed past Ward,” witness Michael Messerly said. LINK
And, there you go. An "accident" in that he did not really intend to kill the man. But, not an "accident" in that Stewart never saw him. Or that he tried everything he could to get out of the way.
And another thought......... Maybe the "dimly-lit track" excuse that many are offering up for Stewart plays into the situation in a way they don't intend for it to. Maybe, if Stewart tried to speed up and send a message to this kid. Maybe the dimly-lit track contributed to him misjudging it and running him over. I don't know. THis thing is very bizarre.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 9:00 am to Jefferson Dawg
I have a really hard time buying the dimly lot track excuse.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 9:07 am to Lord of the Board
Where is Litigator?
I'd like to get a legal analysis of what kind of charges Stewart may possibly be facing.
Vehicular manslaughter. That's when someone is involved in a car crash where another person is killed, but there is no pre-meditated intent, right? This gets tricky though. Because there is clearly evidence of pre-meditated intent to "play chicken" with the kid or speed up and get close to him or whatever. Although, obviously not with the intention for the kid to actually get killed.
I'd like to get a legal analysis of what kind of charges Stewart may possibly be facing.
Vehicular manslaughter. That's when someone is involved in a car crash where another person is killed, but there is no pre-meditated intent, right? This gets tricky though. Because there is clearly evidence of pre-meditated intent to "play chicken" with the kid or speed up and get close to him or whatever. Although, obviously not with the intention for the kid to actually get killed.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 10:26 am to Jefferson Dawg
NY law would govern any criminal charges and here are the list of homicide offenses under their law. LINK. IF any criminal charges were to be filed they could range from criminally negligent homicide to second degree murder, depending on Stewart's state of mind.
Here is my analysis of things posted in another thread except I was inaccurate about there being contact between Stewart and Ward at the time Ward wrecked. LINK. It appears to have been one of those racing deals where the cars ran out of real estate and Ward got pinched back causing him to spin without any contact between the cars.
According to this article the sheriff is going to do a reconstruction of the incident. LINK. That, an autopsy which you had mentioned, and some other things need to occur as part of the investigation. I think all agree the investigation needs to be thorough especially with loss of life involved and debate over what the video shows or doesn't show. A case file would then be submitted to the DA for review to determine what, if any, criminal charges would be filed. That's just proper procedure in my book.
I've been on both sides of these death by vehicle cases (not one involving sanctioned racing though) and it is not the type of situation where any corners need to be cut IMO.
Here is my analysis of things posted in another thread except I was inaccurate about there being contact between Stewart and Ward at the time Ward wrecked. LINK. It appears to have been one of those racing deals where the cars ran out of real estate and Ward got pinched back causing him to spin without any contact between the cars.
According to this article the sheriff is going to do a reconstruction of the incident. LINK. That, an autopsy which you had mentioned, and some other things need to occur as part of the investigation. I think all agree the investigation needs to be thorough especially with loss of life involved and debate over what the video shows or doesn't show. A case file would then be submitted to the DA for review to determine what, if any, criminal charges would be filed. That's just proper procedure in my book.
I've been on both sides of these death by vehicle cases (not one involving sanctioned racing though) and it is not the type of situation where any corners need to be cut IMO.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 10:30 am to Litigator
One thing that I just can't look past is that Ward is in one spot, then as #45 approaches Ward steps BACK up towards the top of the track out of the way. Then after 45 passes, he steps forward DOWN to stewart.
I have no idea what Stewart's intent was, probably nobody ever will know exactly what was going through his head at the time. But more and more it just seems like Ward is primarily at fault. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Stewart escape any real punishment.
I have no idea what Stewart's intent was, probably nobody ever will know exactly what was going through his head at the time. But more and more it just seems like Ward is primarily at fault. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Stewart escape any real punishment.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 10:30 am to Litigator
About damn time you showed up.
I read this earlier... I know you say criminal charges are unlikely, but this sounds spot on - pending the investigation.
-Negligent homicide would not require that Stewart intentionally tried to kill Ward, only that he drove recklessly or carelessly. Such misconduct might include trying to scare — but not hurt — Ward. In New York, negligent homicide is a Class E felony and carries a maximum punishment of four years in prison.
I read this earlier... I know you say criminal charges are unlikely, but this sounds spot on - pending the investigation.
-Negligent homicide would not require that Stewart intentionally tried to kill Ward, only that he drove recklessly or carelessly. Such misconduct might include trying to scare — but not hurt — Ward. In New York, negligent homicide is a Class E felony and carries a maximum punishment of four years in prison.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 10:36 am to AmericusDawg
quote:
Negligent homicide would not require that Stewart intentionally tried to kill Ward, only that he drove recklessly or carelessly
Problem is going to be to absolutely PROVE that stewart was reckless or careless.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 10:45 am to WG_Dawg
Yes, Ward coming out on the track presents a major problem for the prosecutor. Although contributory negligence may not be a LEGAL defense to a prosecution of a crime in NY (I honestly don't know) certainly as a PRACTICAL matter to a jury of 12 I have no doubt it will be a major consideration. And when you review a case for charging you have to evaluate it based on how non-lawyers are going to see it since they will be the ones ultimately making the decision if you follow through with a charge.
Been unleashed in the Northeast for better than a week--just rolled back home this weekend.
quote:
AmericusDawg
Been unleashed in the Northeast for better than a week--just rolled back home this weekend.
This post was edited on 8/11/14 at 11:06 am
Posted on 8/11/14 at 12:23 pm to Litigator
There is no way on this earth that a jury of 12 unanimously agree that Stewart tried to run this kid over.
There is going to be sooooo much reasonable doubt, it's going to be impossible. Unless Stewart comes right out and admits he purposely tried to hit him, or was some how negligent in his handling of the car. But we all know that ain't gonna happen.
So the prosecution would bring experts testifying one thing, and Tony's lawyers would bring experts refuting it and testing the opposite. And there won't be any way to prove intent and there won't be any admission of guilt.
This equals either reasonable doubt and full acquittal, or hung jury after hung jury after hung jury. Either way, Stewart is not seeing one single day of a jail cell no matter what happens.
There is going to be sooooo much reasonable doubt, it's going to be impossible. Unless Stewart comes right out and admits he purposely tried to hit him, or was some how negligent in his handling of the car. But we all know that ain't gonna happen.
So the prosecution would bring experts testifying one thing, and Tony's lawyers would bring experts refuting it and testing the opposite. And there won't be any way to prove intent and there won't be any admission of guilt.
This equals either reasonable doubt and full acquittal, or hung jury after hung jury after hung jury. Either way, Stewart is not seeing one single day of a jail cell no matter what happens.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 12:47 pm to Litigator
Posted on 8/11/14 at 2:10 pm to Lord of the Board
quote:
I have a really hard time buying the dimly lot track excuse.
This video pretty much puts that theory to bed.....
LINK....
It's a Go-Pro video taken from inside a SPrint car on the exact same track at night from a couple years ago...........
The lighting in Turn 2 looks more than adequate to me.
Anyway......
Fast-forward to about 04:45 when a caution flag comes out for an accident, and I am assuming that this is pretty much a similiar view to what Stewart had on Saturday night. And at a similiar speed.
At 05:30, notice the driver clearly able to turn his car effectively using the steering wheel.........and NOT having to punch the throttle in order to turn under caution as some have falsely claimed.
That sick feeling in my stomach about this is getting worse. What do y'all think?
Edit: Okay.....I see now that these cars are missing the wing thing, so maybe it's not the exact same model as what Stewart was racing that night. Still an interesting perspective, i think, though.
This post was edited on 8/11/14 at 2:30 pm
Posted on 8/11/14 at 2:34 pm to Jefferson Dawg
quote:
That sick feeling in my stomach about this is getting worse. What do y'all think?
As someone else said, only Stewart knows what he did and why. I think he buzzed the guy out of anger and punched it as he went by to prove a point. Obviously didn't mean to kill him. It was probably as much the victim's fault as Stewart's, maybe more. It'll be hard for Stewart to survive this with his track record (no pun). I think he'll survive legally but his professional career is essentially over. I could be wrong.
Posted on 8/11/14 at 2:48 pm to Jefferson Dawg
Alright that video pretty much dismisses the theory that there wasn't enough light on the track to see the driver. It also shows, like you said, that there was no real reason for him to gun his car in order to make the turn.
People have also said something to the effect that TS and the group had just entered caution and that he didn't have the proper amount of time to slow down to a more appropriate speed like the drivers in that video were maintaining. I can't really buy that theory either, because TS was the one who wrecked the kid so he had to know that there was going to be a caution out, and the other drivers seemed to be going at a slow and appropriate speed.
Have there been any other videos of the incident released?
People have also said something to the effect that TS and the group had just entered caution and that he didn't have the proper amount of time to slow down to a more appropriate speed like the drivers in that video were maintaining. I can't really buy that theory either, because TS was the one who wrecked the kid so he had to know that there was going to be a caution out, and the other drivers seemed to be going at a slow and appropriate speed.
Have there been any other videos of the incident released?
Posted on 8/11/14 at 3:26 pm to Lord of the Board
Here's another pic of the track. This one from the night of the incident.......showing a much better lit track than what the video presents. It's something about the aperture on the video or something that makes it look so dark at the track.
But, notice how shite gets repeated in ever single mainstream media article. Every single one of them refers to "the driver in a dark colored jump-suit getting run over on a dimly lit track"..............
quote:
People have also said something to the effect that TS and the group had just entered caution and that he didn't have the proper amount of time to slow down to a more appropriate speed
The eyewitness accounts that I have read all confirm that the caution went up as soon as the car spun into the wall... and that entire field had slowed prior. ALso, the cars passing the victim once he's out of his car and before he's killed are all slowed down.
quote:
Have there been any other videos of the incident released?
Not yet. Only rumors that Tony usually has a Go-Pro cam on his SPrint cars.
But, there's all kinds of videos from this track over the years on youtube, etc. So, I'd be surprised if something else doesn't surface.
This post was edited on 8/11/14 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 8/11/14 at 6:50 pm to Jefferson Dawg
Just "business as usual" for Tony Stewart. Oops, I mean so sad. Boo, hoo, hoo.
Anyone who can't see that Stewart is a complete dirtbag is a moron.
Anyone who can't see that Stewart is a complete dirtbag is a moron.
This post was edited on 8/11/14 at 6:52 pm
Posted on 8/11/14 at 8:11 pm to Lord of the Board
quote:
Have there been any other videos of the incident released?
The cops have one from another angle, but if it's not out now, it probably won't be.
Posted on 8/12/14 at 7:18 am to Jefferson Dawg
Not really dismissing the bit about adequate lighting, but to play devil's advocate, a perspective from the infield isn't the same thing as the driver's perspective behind the wheel and through a helmet visor. Are there any shots showing what that looks like?
Posted on 8/12/14 at 7:53 am to Jefferson Dawg
Cameras can add light. I know you saw the Golf Tourney on Sunday when they showed how dark it really was vs what the camera added
Posted on 8/12/14 at 8:39 am to DawgCountry
For an update the autopsy of Ward has been completed and the only thing being released is that the cause of death was blunt force trauma which was to be expected. LINK. The authorities are not releasing any toxicology results or any other details of the autopsy at this point.
Evidently Stewart was interviewed by the authorities two different times following the incident. No details of those interviews have been released so far as I know.
They have confirmed there is a second video which shows the incident from a different angle. They are giving no details about it and it hasn't been released so far as I know. Evidently there is no in car video or anything of that nature regarding Stewart's vehicle.
I also read they are continuing to interview other drivers and witnesses. It is basically SOP that a number of the details associated with the investigation will remain under wraps until it is completed.
Evidently Stewart was interviewed by the authorities two different times following the incident. No details of those interviews have been released so far as I know.
They have confirmed there is a second video which shows the incident from a different angle. They are giving no details about it and it hasn't been released so far as I know. Evidently there is no in car video or anything of that nature regarding Stewart's vehicle.
I also read they are continuing to interview other drivers and witnesses. It is basically SOP that a number of the details associated with the investigation will remain under wraps until it is completed.
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