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re: Poll: how many of you here consider yourself religious
Posted on 4/5/15 at 10:13 pm to Chef Leppard
Posted on 4/5/15 at 10:13 pm to Chef Leppard
That is a common argument used against the existence of God, claiming that He doesn't exist and if He did, He would be so evil that there would be no reason to worship Him.
It also assumes that mankind is innocent and doesn't deserve the evil that exists. It also ignores the vast amount of goodness in the world.
You apparently have ignored the Biblical narrative that states that God "install[ed] mankind" in a perfect environment, often referred to as "paradise", and that the human representatives God put in place to tend to this perfect space broke the one rule God put in place for them.
Christians understand that humans break God's law all the time and deserve all the evil in this world and the world to come, and that by giving us a "way out", God is actually being pretty darned merciful, since He could crush every single one of us like bugs without any reason whatsoever; if He created us, why does he owe us anything?
Those who love their sin will always hate a God who punishes sin.
It also assumes that mankind is innocent and doesn't deserve the evil that exists. It also ignores the vast amount of goodness in the world.
You apparently have ignored the Biblical narrative that states that God "install[ed] mankind" in a perfect environment, often referred to as "paradise", and that the human representatives God put in place to tend to this perfect space broke the one rule God put in place for them.
Christians understand that humans break God's law all the time and deserve all the evil in this world and the world to come, and that by giving us a "way out", God is actually being pretty darned merciful, since He could crush every single one of us like bugs without any reason whatsoever; if He created us, why does he owe us anything?
Those who love their sin will always hate a God who punishes sin.
1
Posted on 4/5/15 at 10:27 pm to Chef Leppard
People are inherently gullible to a fault and this makes them susceptible to manipulation.
It's the same reason Obama was elected president.
An entire culture of people born into slavery and then delivered out of it believe that the buraucrats that supposedly champion their cause are actually trying to solve their problems, and that social programs and welfare are proof of this.
There are so many instances of people being victims of manipulation, that it's just no surprise at all that they have allowed religion to hold so much power over them. It's simple cause and effect.
It's the same reason Obama was elected president.
An entire culture of people born into slavery and then delivered out of it believe that the buraucrats that supposedly champion their cause are actually trying to solve their problems, and that social programs and welfare are proof of this.
There are so many instances of people being victims of manipulation, that it's just no surprise at all that they have allowed religion to hold so much power over them. It's simple cause and effect.
Posted on 4/5/15 at 10:48 pm to BeefDawg
It's interesting to me that you think that anyone buys into a religious belief must be gullible and susceptible to manipulation. That's a very broad brush you are painting with and I think it's completely inaccurate.
Posted on 4/5/15 at 11:14 pm to FooManChoo
Youre quoting the bible again man. hardly reference material for making your point
The story of jesus is not even an original story. or are we still disregarding the uncanny similarities between him and the egyption savior Horus from a few thousand years before
The story of jesus is not even an original story. or are we still disregarding the uncanny similarities between him and the egyption savior Horus from a few thousand years before
Posted on 4/5/15 at 11:36 pm to Broncothor
You clearly insinuated that "Faith" was a measure of quantification (ie. proof because no disproof). But that's simply not fact.
As I said, Faith is nothing more than personal confirmation bias without substantiation or resolve.
I never said people didn't have faith or that faith was bad or wrong. I merely explained that it's a self-aggrandizing mechanism that changes nothing and lends credence to nothing. It's sole purpose is pure selfishness as it ONLY confirms your own bias and attempts to fulfill a personal desire.
You insisted that matter was created and that there was a "beginning" to it all. But what if that's wrong. What if time and energy/matter are infinite and you're wrong?
I mean does it make sense that at some point nothing existed and then suddenly God appeared from nothing? Well then who or what created God? And then who or what created the thing that created God?
And when does that stop?
You see, faith is almost irrelevent when you begin to think further than just us and our purpose and why we're here and who or what made us. If you can't consider how and why God came to exist and how long has he existed, then you're just being biased and obtuse.
And the notion of "nothing" existing is insane and silly beyond logic. And if "God" truly is infinite, then by definition he already knows our outcome because he would have experienced it infinite iterations. Which destroys our purpose to him. And if we have no purpose to him, the act of futility in creating us is irrational.
That all said... again... none of this matters because people are inherently gullible and will believe what they want to believe for selfish reasons. And call that "faith". Logic and practicalities be damned.
As I said, Faith is nothing more than personal confirmation bias without substantiation or resolve.
I never said people didn't have faith or that faith was bad or wrong. I merely explained that it's a self-aggrandizing mechanism that changes nothing and lends credence to nothing. It's sole purpose is pure selfishness as it ONLY confirms your own bias and attempts to fulfill a personal desire.
You insisted that matter was created and that there was a "beginning" to it all. But what if that's wrong. What if time and energy/matter are infinite and you're wrong?
I mean does it make sense that at some point nothing existed and then suddenly God appeared from nothing? Well then who or what created God? And then who or what created the thing that created God?
And when does that stop?
You see, faith is almost irrelevent when you begin to think further than just us and our purpose and why we're here and who or what made us. If you can't consider how and why God came to exist and how long has he existed, then you're just being biased and obtuse.
And the notion of "nothing" existing is insane and silly beyond logic. And if "God" truly is infinite, then by definition he already knows our outcome because he would have experienced it infinite iterations. Which destroys our purpose to him. And if we have no purpose to him, the act of futility in creating us is irrational.
That all said... again... none of this matters because people are inherently gullible and will believe what they want to believe for selfish reasons. And call that "faith". Logic and practicalities be damned.
Posted on 4/5/15 at 11:36 pm to Chef Leppard
quote:Not at all. You're bashing the concept of a God that is described by the Bible. I'm just describing what real Christians believe about that God. You don't have to believe the Bible to be true, but if you're going to condemn the God of the Bible, you should at least allow for rebuttals from the same text that describes Him as He is believed to exist by many.
Youre quoting the bible again man. hardly reference material for making your point
quote:Bet you got that from Bill Maher's movie.
The story of jesus is not even an original story. or are we still disregarding the uncanny similarities between him and the egyption savior Horus from a few thousand years before
There are plenty of sites out there that debunk the myth that Jesus and His story were stolen from the Egyptians. The key points of Jesus' life was said to be fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The New Testament writers didn't claim that Jesus' mission was original to the time they were living in; they believed it to be an accomplishment of what was foretold thousands of years prior.
Posted on 4/5/15 at 11:57 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Bet you got that from Bill Maher's movie
And you would be wrong. I dont even know what youre talking about
quote:
You're bashing the concept of a God that is described by the Bible
I dont recognize THE BIBLE. anymore than i recognize any other texts by groups claiming proof of the existance of god
Christianity 2.1 billion
Islam 1.3 billion
Hinduism 900 million
Chinese traditional religion 394 million
Buddhism 376 million
Primal indigenous 300 million
African traditional and diasporic 100 million
Sikhism 23 million
Juche 19 million
Spiritism 15 million
Judaism 14 million
Bahá'í Faith 7 million
Jainism 4.2 million
Shinto 4 million
Cao Dai 4 million
Zoroastrianism 2.6 million
Tenrikyo 2 million
Neopaganism 1 million
Unitarian Universalism 800,000
Rastafari movement 600,000
Posted on 4/6/15 at 12:11 am to Chef Leppard
quote:He says that Jesus wasn't original in his movie "Religulous". Lists all these things that Horus and Jesus have in common. It's a completely bogus list, though. Even people on Richard Dawkin's site see the comparison as a hoax without hard evidence.
And you would be wrong. I dont even know what youre talking about
quote:Like I said, you don't have to recognize or believe the Bible at all, but you have to allow for rebuttals from the Bible if you are using information taken from the Bible to incorrectly (or at least disingenuously) describe the God of the Bible.
I dont recognize THE BIBLE. anymore than i recognize any other texts by groups claiming proof of the existance of god
Posted on 4/6/15 at 12:53 am to FooManChoo
Inaccurate?
Sounds like what someone would say who is incapable of seeing when they're being gullible.
Countless wars have been fought over religion, and every time one side has ended up with power and control over the other. And this "power" has always included a hierarchy of people in a class-society, and the folks at the top gain the most while those underneath them funnel through inferiority and inequality.
And unfortunately that's how everything works.
Today, there's a "Religious Right" and a non-religious Left, and an oligarchy at the top of uber rich elitists and power hungry bureaucrats who want this divide because it helps them ensure their status and positions.
You see, if you're right about your religious beliefs, then you benefit. If you're wrong, then you don't. But you know who benefits either way? The folks at the top of our class-society.
And my "belief" is that the people at the top of class-societies, for centuries, have been inventing/using religion to gain power and assert rules to help maintain control over people.
And whether you like it or not, that's exactly what religion does and has been doing forever. Even though religious people believe it's got a totally different purpose and meaning for them, somebody else has always been taking advantage of religion.
Sounds like what someone would say who is incapable of seeing when they're being gullible.
Countless wars have been fought over religion, and every time one side has ended up with power and control over the other. And this "power" has always included a hierarchy of people in a class-society, and the folks at the top gain the most while those underneath them funnel through inferiority and inequality.
And unfortunately that's how everything works.
Today, there's a "Religious Right" and a non-religious Left, and an oligarchy at the top of uber rich elitists and power hungry bureaucrats who want this divide because it helps them ensure their status and positions.
You see, if you're right about your religious beliefs, then you benefit. If you're wrong, then you don't. But you know who benefits either way? The folks at the top of our class-society.
And my "belief" is that the people at the top of class-societies, for centuries, have been inventing/using religion to gain power and assert rules to help maintain control over people.
And whether you like it or not, that's exactly what religion does and has been doing forever. Even though religious people believe it's got a totally different purpose and meaning for them, somebody else has always been taking advantage of religion.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 6:33 am to Whiznot
quote:
Religion is dangerous because it divorces people from reality. Look at the Peoples' Temple mass suicide/murder and the Heaven's Gate mass suicide/murder. Religion is dangerous and the more fervent the belief the greater the danger.
Congratulations, this is quite possibly the dumbest post I’ve read since migrating from the old rant. I truly mean it.
Religion isn’t dangerous, people are dangerous. Guns aren't dangerous, people with bad intentions are dangerous. I could go on with more analogies. Point is, anything can be used as a catalyst for “danger”.
You are obviously one of those people who watch CNN and allow their message to form your opinion (some people call them liberals). Many religious people are doing amazing things around the world. Did you know millions of people relocate around the world to feed the hungry, provide water to the poor, free healthcare and an education? Something that’s about to blow your mind, they are doing it out of good will. Real dangerous people! Your problem is that you don’t have the ability to think for yourself. If you don’t believe in Jesus, so be it. But don’t chastise something just because you don’t agree with it. I would never condemn a non-believer. Calling religion “dangerous" is highly offensive.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 6:52 am to sowega dawg
quote:
I am a religious man. I'm just not very good at it.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 8:05 am to Glory, Glory
I think you're confusing Christianity with the generality of Religion.
Islam is a "religion", and the word "dangerous" is an understatement x10 when it comes to describing Islam.
And just because someone doesn't believe in God, thinks the Bible is a sham, and that religion in general is dangerous and has been used as a mechanism to control and manipulate people doesn't mean they're a Liberal.
Trust me, I'm a huge molon labe don't tread on me constitutionalist conservative who absolutely loathes liberals and the concepts of liberalism, progressivism, and collectivism. But I also don't believe in God and I think religion was originally created by oligarchs to rule the masses.
That doesn't mean all religions are bad and are designed to do bad things and that people who believe and have faith are being hoodwinked into an evil cult to do evil things. The content inside most religions is obviously high level morality and ethics with love of self and others and doing good at its core. But that doesn't change the fact that people in power have been taking advantage of what religions indirectly grant since their inception. Which is more power to wield and a control structure over people. Which in the wrong hands is incredibly dangerous. Radical Muslim Imams are a perfect example. The prophet Muhammed is a perfect example. King George was a perfect example. Alexander the Great was a perfect example.
We are a divided country right now. And religion is playing a huge role in that. Even though it's content is good, people are still fighting over it and politicians are attaining power and wealth because they have chosen a side to be on. And with an entire country of people divided, they are installing more and more rules and controls on us. The super rich are just getting richer while we all squabble over which side is better or more righteous than the other.
Yes, religion is dangerous. Anything that grants this much power to those in control is dangerous.
Islam is a "religion", and the word "dangerous" is an understatement x10 when it comes to describing Islam.
And just because someone doesn't believe in God, thinks the Bible is a sham, and that religion in general is dangerous and has been used as a mechanism to control and manipulate people doesn't mean they're a Liberal.
Trust me, I'm a huge molon labe don't tread on me constitutionalist conservative who absolutely loathes liberals and the concepts of liberalism, progressivism, and collectivism. But I also don't believe in God and I think religion was originally created by oligarchs to rule the masses.
That doesn't mean all religions are bad and are designed to do bad things and that people who believe and have faith are being hoodwinked into an evil cult to do evil things. The content inside most religions is obviously high level morality and ethics with love of self and others and doing good at its core. But that doesn't change the fact that people in power have been taking advantage of what religions indirectly grant since their inception. Which is more power to wield and a control structure over people. Which in the wrong hands is incredibly dangerous. Radical Muslim Imams are a perfect example. The prophet Muhammed is a perfect example. King George was a perfect example. Alexander the Great was a perfect example.
We are a divided country right now. And religion is playing a huge role in that. Even though it's content is good, people are still fighting over it and politicians are attaining power and wealth because they have chosen a side to be on. And with an entire country of people divided, they are installing more and more rules and controls on us. The super rich are just getting richer while we all squabble over which side is better or more righteous than the other.
Yes, religion is dangerous. Anything that grants this much power to those in control is dangerous.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 9:03 am to Glory, Glory
quote:
Calling religion “dangerous" is highly offensive
Well thats frickin ridiculous
Im still a somewhat religious person fwiw. Just fricking around. I just felt like arguing really. Billy graham and charles stanley are two of my biggest personal heros
Posted on 4/6/15 at 11:02 am to Chef Leppard
quote:
charles stanley
Great preacher, and his son is even better.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 11:42 am to BeefDawg
Again. Read first. I never said that everything had to be created. I said man is unable to comprehend or explain existence without a beginning as we are limited by logic. We are not smart enough to know so we have to create a belief. You want to argue so badly you misread. Only in one sentence did I even say what I believe. Read think reflect chill. Out.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 3:18 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
You apparently have ignored the Biblical narrative that states that God "install[ed] mankind" in a perfect environment, often referred to as "paradise", and that the human representatives God put in place to tend to this perfect space broke the one rule God put in place for them.
Christians understand that humans break God's law all the time and deserve all the evil in this world and the world to come, and that by giving us a "way out", God is actually being pretty darned merciful, since He could crush every single one of us like bugs without any reason whatsoever; if He created us, why does he owe us anything?
God is supposed to be omniscient, right? If so, then God *knew*, even before he created humanity, that humanity would break his one rule. Thus, breaking the rule was predestined; thus, there was no free will involved. No free will means no sin, no sin means the punishment was purely arbitrary. In which case, he would owe quite an apology.
Also, if God created man, he's a shite parent. He didn't bother to teach his children about right and wrong - in fact, he specifically forbade them from learning about it. So again, any punishments that he metes out make no sense to those punished.
Add in God always hardening Pharoah's heart in order to force Pharoah to make decisions that would bring down ruin.
It's pretty hard to read the early books of the Bible and come away with a positive view of God: the above stuff, plus the genocide of the great flood; destroying Job's life just because; his little "test" of Abraham, etc.
Judged on his behavior, he's the worst sort of tyrant imaginable: arbitrary, capricious, and vindictive.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 3:25 pm to FaCubeItches
quote:
Thus, breaking the rule was predestined; thus, there was no free will involved
Do you understand free will? We all have the choice to do anything we want to do, even if it is already known beforehand. No entity or nobody is forcing me to get up and walk to my door right now, or remain seated. I can do either one I want to do. But whichever one of those things I end up doing, it's known beforehand. Just because the outcome for every person is already known doesn't mean we don't have free will to make our own choices.
quote:
Also, if God created man, he's a shite parent.
God gave us a brain to act how we want to. Your kids if you have them undoubtedly have or will majorly screw up in their lifetimes, does that make you a shite parent?
God made it to where all mankind has the ability to spend the eternity of their afterlife in Heaven as opposed to a fiery hell, I'd say that was pretty nice on his part.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 5:29 pm to FooManChoo
Horus, Osiris, Dionysus, Adonis, Attis, and Mithras.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 6:16 pm to BeefDawg
quote:To be gullible is to be easily persuaded into believing something. You don't know me but I'll go ahead and let you know that I have put a lot of thought into my own beliefs. I'm the farthest thing from "gullible".
Inaccurate?
Sounds like what someone would say who is incapable of seeing when they're being gullible.
quote:Please provide examples of what this looks like. Regardless of whether or not religion has been used to wage wars (wars happen for all kinds of reasons), how are religious people being manipulated by those in power? More specifically, how am I, as a professing Christian, being manipulated?
Countless wars have been fought over religion, and every time one side has ended up with power and control over the other. And this "power" has always included a hierarchy of people in a class-society, and the folks at the top gain the most while those underneath them funnel through inferiority and inequality.
quote:I won't deny that wicked, power-hungry people will use whatever means at their disposal to gain and keep power for themselves, but how have people like me been manipulated and kept under control by people like these?
And unfortunately that's how everything works.
Today, there's a "Religious Right" and a non-religious Left, and an oligarchy at the top of uber rich elitists and power hungry bureaucrats who want this divide because it helps them ensure their status and positions.
You see, if you're right about your religious beliefs, then you benefit. If you're wrong, then you don't. But you know who benefits either way? The folks at the top of our class-society.
And my "belief" is that the people at the top of class-societies, for centuries, have been inventing/using religion to gain power and assert rules to help maintain control over people.
And whether you like it or not, that's exactly what religion does and has been doing forever. Even though religious people believe it's got a totally different purpose and meaning for them, somebody else has always been taking advantage of religion.
Posted on 4/6/15 at 7:17 pm to WG_Dawg
quote:
Do you understand free will? We all have the choice to do anything we want to do, even if it is already known beforehand.
If the result is known beforehand, then the action is predestined; i.e., the very fricking opposite of free will. You are simply following a course of action that was planned out for you long ago.
quote:
No entity or nobody is forcing me to get up and walk to my door right now, or remain seated. I can do either one I want to do. But whichever one of those things I end up doing, it's known beforehand. Just because the outcome for every person is already known doesn't mean we don't have free will to make our own choices.
An omniscient God would know from the very creation of the Universe that you would go to the door, or remain seated. You know, the whole "Divine Plan" thing? Unless, of course, you posit that you are more powerful than God and can, through the force of your own will, alter the Divine Plan and prove what God already knows will happen to be false. In which case, God isn't really much of a god.
quote:
God made it to where all mankind has the ability to spend the eternity of their afterlife in Heaven as opposed to a fiery hell, I'd say that was pretty nice on his part.
Guess you haven't read any of St. John's stuff then - Heaven is nothing more than sitting around telling God how great he is. Might be nice for the first eon or two, but after that - it's going to get awfully boring.
quote:
"God gave us a brain to act how we want to."
Sorry, no. If you accept that God is all-knowing, then you're only acting in the exact manner that he knew that you would. You only have an illusion of choice. Or, if you truly believe you can act how you want, then God is not all-knowing (or all-powerful), since your will negates his.
quote:
"Your kids if you have them undoubtedly have or will majorly screw up in their lifetimes, does that make you a shite parent?"
Depending upon the screw up, maybe. But then again, the scope of my divine power is limited, at the very best. For example, unlike an omniscient God, I don't have any foreknowledge of what my hypothetical kids might do in their lives. However, if I *knew* now, today, that in 4 years I was going to have a son, and that at 2:21 a.m., March 9, 2027, he was going to break into a house located at 5711 White Oak Lane, in Beaumont, Texas and kill the Martin family (Bob - dad, Kathleen - mom, Jenny and Kevin - kids, and Roscoe - dog) and I didn't do every single thing in my power to stop it, then yeah - that would be some pretty shitty parenting.
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