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re: Mizzou Admits They F*cked Up Sexual Assault Case of Student Athlete
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:27 am to kilo
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:27 am to kilo
I somehow missed this gem in responding to roadhouse.
Let's take a crack at it:
Anderson's testimony is what it is. At best, she was told that Courey didn't want to come back to school because something bad happened. At worst, she was told that Courey was raped and failed to report it. Either way, I don't think the implication is that everything was hunky-dory in the handling of this matter.
And? Does this mean she wasn't raped at Missouri? Does this absolve Missouri for the failure to implement policies regarding handling reports and investigating allegations of sexual assault by Missouri students? Does it mean she didn't report the rape to Anderson? Does it absolve Missouri for failing to investigate the rape after Courey's death?
The report finds fault for Missouri's failure to implement policies, did the investigators screw up? General Counsel said Missouri dropped the ball, should he rescind his statement? The investigators specifically found fault for Missouri failing to investigate the assault after Courey's death and debunked the claim that 'privacy concerns' kept an investigation from happening. Does the fact that Courey had mental health issues change any of that?
You're still having trouble with this. The investigators could not "definitively conclude" that Anderson knew of the rape. Definitive necessarily means a standard higher than "more probable than not."
If you had to take these facts, could you find a greater than 50% chance of one over the other? Not definitive, not undisputed, but more probable?
Read the report again. Two findings will stand out to you and are more than "procedural" issues:
Missouri failed to review and implement policies discussed in the Dear Colleagues letter from 2011.
Missouri failed to investigate an alleged sexual assault of a student after her suicide, citing privacy concerns that did not exist.
Let's take a crack at it:
quote:
And Anderson's testimony contradicts what she wrote in her diary. So you believe one and not the other, that really the gist of what you have been getting at through multiple posts all the while pointing fingers at Mizzou fans for being "biased". Hilarious.
Anderson's testimony is what it is. At best, she was told that Courey didn't want to come back to school because something bad happened. At worst, she was told that Courey was raped and failed to report it. Either way, I don't think the implication is that everything was hunky-dory in the handling of this matter.
quote:
Do you realize this woman attempted suicide two other times in completely unrelated situations to here alleged rape? She has a history of mental illness that neither herself or her parents thought "important" to inform the University of Missouri about prior to attending.
And? Does this mean she wasn't raped at Missouri? Does this absolve Missouri for the failure to implement policies regarding handling reports and investigating allegations of sexual assault by Missouri students? Does it mean she didn't report the rape to Anderson? Does it absolve Missouri for failing to investigate the rape after Courey's death?
The report finds fault for Missouri's failure to implement policies, did the investigators screw up? General Counsel said Missouri dropped the ball, should he rescind his statement? The investigators specifically found fault for Missouri failing to investigate the assault after Courey's death and debunked the claim that 'privacy concerns' kept an investigation from happening. Does the fact that Courey had mental health issues change any of that?
quote:
You mean like the independent investigator who found "no definitive conclusion".
You're still having trouble with this. The investigators could not "definitively conclude" that Anderson knew of the rape. Definitive necessarily means a standard higher than "more probable than not."
If you had to take these facts, could you find a greater than 50% chance of one over the other? Not definitive, not undisputed, but more probable?
quote:
The only one in this thread drawing conclusions outside the scope of the report is you Grits. Everyone else seems to be taking the report at face value and accepting that there are procedural issues that need to be improved at Mizzou concerning reporting after the fact.
Read the report again. Two findings will stand out to you and are more than "procedural" issues:
Missouri failed to review and implement policies discussed in the Dear Colleagues letter from 2011.
Missouri failed to investigate an alleged sexual assault of a student after her suicide, citing privacy concerns that did not exist.
2
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:29 am to JDHLaw
quote:
Reporting a rape should always result in an investigation.
I would like to get a female perspective on this. I think you'll find that not every woman wants people to take it upon their selves to report and launch an investigation into their own personal matters, especially when it is well over a year after the event, and even by the independent report, Sasha didn't want her own closest friends, family, or anyone to know about it.
Factor in her fragile mental state, and you are making a claim that most rational persons would not agree with.
Bottom line is Sasha didn't want sympathy or her personal issues to be made public. The fact that you think that you know what is best for this girl you've never had any interaction with, and have such an intense interest in this, is bizarre at best.
Please tell us why you have such an interest in this story? Do you commonly investigate collegiate rape stories?
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:33 am to JDHLaw
quote:
Missouri failed to investigate an alleged sexual assault of a student after her suicide, citing privacy concerns that did not exist.
You certainly are a stickler for following procedure. Do you not see any value whatsoever in asking the parents if they'd like to investigate a possible rape of their deceased daughter? Damn the parents wishes, follow "procedure" at all costs!
Your interest in this story is pretty sick.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:39 am to roadhouse
quote:
I would like to get a female perspective on this. I think you'll find that not every woman wants people to take it upon their selves to report and launch an investigation into their own personal matters, especially when it is well over a year after the event, and even by the independent report, Sasha didn't want her own closest friends, family, or anyone to know about it.
Factor in her fragile mental state, and you are making a claim that most rational persons would not agree with.
Bottom line is Sasha didn't want sympathy or her personal issues to be made public. The fact that you think that you know what is best for this girl you've never had any interaction with, and have such an intense interest in this, is bizarre at best.
I'm looking at it from an institutional perspective.
Institutionally, your policy should be to thoroughly investigate any and all allegations of sexual assault.
I didn't have an interest in the story, as such, until I read a bunch of Missouri posters posting about how this thread was about jealousy about Missouri's football program or whatever and decided to read the report to see what was up. After reading it, the cavalier attitude towards what was a pretty big institutional (and potentially individual) failing aggravated me and I decided to post about it.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:41 am to JDHLaw
quote:
You're still having trouble with this. The investigators could not "definitively conclude" that Anderson knew of the rape. Definitive necessarily means a standard higher than "more probable than not."
If you had to take these facts, could you find a greater than 50% chance of one over the other? Not definitive, not undisputed, but more probable?
And you're still having trouble acknowledging that you are making conclusions and assumptions.
Your whole shtick in this thread is some form of white knighting against Mizzou fans because we "think" the report absolves the school. Its fairly bizarre and hints at some deeper level of angst directed towards Mizzou.
This report doesnt stain Mizzou the way you wanted it too and the way your predicted it would prior and now you are stretching and reaching through assumption and spin.
You still fail to take into consideration the bizarre circumstances surrounding the case as well.
No, Grits, its the same schtick from before just under a different screen name.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:44 am to JDHLaw
quote:
I didn't have an interest in the story, as such, until I read a bunch of Missouri posters posting about how this thread was about jealousy about Missouri's football program or whatever and decided to read the report to see what was up. After reading it, the cavalier attitude towards what was a pretty big institutional (and potentially individual) failing aggravated me and I decided to post about it.
Get the frick out. You dont really believe anyone buys that do you?
This was a trolling thread by a known troll and was treated as such. Oh my god.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:47 am to JDHLaw
quote:
Institutionally, your policy should be to thoroughly investigate any and all allegations of sexual assault.
If they are formally made, I agree. You cant investigate something you are unaware of in the first place.
How things were handled after her death when the alleged rape took place are convoluted and here is where the University needs to do better and I hope they do tighten up the ship and have procedures set into place.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:49 am to roadhouse
quote:
You certainly are a stickler for following procedure. Do you not see any value whatsoever in asking the parents if they'd like to investigate a possible rape of their deceased daughter? Damn the parents wishes, follow "procedure" at all costs!
Your interest in this story is pretty sick.
Let's see what the report says about procedure, the parent's wishes and privacy concerns:
"In an e-mail dated January 26, 2014.. the MU Title IX Coordinator stated 'We had the obligation to assess, even if Sasha didn't want an investigation, whether the accused present a continuing danger to the campus community.'"
"The Assistant General Counsel acknowledges that he made a mistake in 2012 and that the Title IX Coordinato's above-quoted email was correct..."
"Both the Assistant General Counsel and the Senior Coordinator for the Office of Student Conduct acknowledged that there were investigative steps that should have been taken but were not."
"The AGC suggested that concern for.. confidentiality was a reason for not going forward with an investigation in 2012. However, the then-known facts do not justify this... concern. First, no-one asked the University to maintain confidentiality... Second, the victim's confidentiality became less of an issue because she was deceased. Third, and most significantly, after her death, her parents had made the assault publically known by providing the excerpt from her diary..."
So, the answer is pretty simple. The university screwed up and general counsel has acknowledged it. Privacy was not a concern, given that the parents provided a copy of the diary to the press.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:51 am to JDHLaw
quote:
The university screwed up and general counsel has acknowledged it. Privacy was not a concern
All of this looking back in hindsight.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:56 am to kilo
quote:
If they are formally made, I agree. You cant investigate something you are unaware of in the first place.
How things were handled after her death when the alleged rape took place are convoluted and here is where the University needs to do better and I hope they do tighten up the ship and have procedures set into place.
Setting aside the nonsense belief that I'm Cheese Grits grinding some axe, we can agree on this much.
Missouri needs to do better and put the procedures in place. In fact, I would be extremely surprised if the university hasn't drafted comprehensive policies at this point.
Missouri should have investigated the rape after her death. Everyone acknowledges that.
Whether Anderson (or anyone else other than health care providers) knew of the rape prior to her death is debatable and, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant other than as a thought exercise.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 12:57 am to kilo
quote:
All of this looking back in hindsight.
Agree.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 1:02 am to JDHLaw
quote:
Whether Anderson (or anyone else other than health care providers) knew of the rape prior to her death is debatable and, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant other than as a thought exercise.
You cant have your cake and eat it as well, either we absorb the whole report for what it is or you dont.
No one is arguing that the after her death handling was convoluted and ugly. Your main contention in this thread has been on Ms Anderson and her having knowledge of the fact prior and that just doesn't hold any water outside your vivid imagination.
While the situation is tragic all the way around and points to some issues that need to be resolved procedural it isnt the damning situation you are trying to make it into.
quote:
As to what was said during the call, Meghan Anderson is adamant that Sasha Menu
Courey did not tell her she had been “raped.” She is very confident that had she heard that word,
she would have reacted strongly and known exactly what she would have needed to do (which,
in her understanding was to report it to her superiors). She likewise stated, she did not hear
anything about a sexual assault. Rather, she recalls Sasha telling her that she was hesitant to
return to school because “bad things had happened there.” Ms. Anderson assumed that the “bad
things” were Sasha Menu Courey’s attempts to take her own life. She stated that she did not
hear anything that suggested Sasha Menu Courey was sexually assaulted. Because she believed
she knew what the “bad things” were, she did not ask about them during the call. The
conversation also involved a discussion of Sasha’s alternatives for the next school year.
quote:
The interview of Meghan Anderson was conducted by Jim Martin and Ed Dowd, who
between them have over 40 years of experience in investigative interviews. Both found Ms.
Anderson to be very credible in her demeanor and description of the events. There was nothing
observed during the interview which indicated that she was being less than fully honest.
quote:
Ms. Anderson was convincing that she knew she would be obligated to report the assault
if she had heard Sasha mention a sexual assault.
Also noteworthy in assessing the dialogue between Sasha and Ms. Anderson, Sasha
Menu Courey’s May 12 diary entry states that during the call, Meghan Anderson “didn’t talk to
me in a sympathetic way and for that I am so grateful.” Sasha Menu Courey’s May 12 diary 18
entry also ends with a statement about Meghan Anderson that “[s]he is quite an incredible
person. She is really kind and caring and she goes above and beyond to help her student-athletes
exceed.” This description of Meghan Anderson was confirmed by multiple interviews. Both
based on multiple interviews of people who knew Meghan Anderson and from the Meghan
Anderson interview itself, Ms. Anderson’s personality does not appear to be the type that would
fail to “talk in a sympathetic way” if she had actually understood that a person she clearly cared
about informed her that she had been raped.
We also talked to the friend/co-worker with wh
This post was edited on 4/16/14 at 1:05 am
Posted on 4/16/14 at 1:27 am to kilo
quote:
You cant have your cake and eat it as well, either we absorb the whole report for what it is or you dont. No one is arguing that the after her death handling was convoluted and ugly. Your main contention in this thread has been on Ms Anderson and her having knowledge of the fact prior and that just doesn't hold any water outside your vivid imagination. While the situation is tragic all the way around and points to some issues that need to be resolved procedural it isnt the damning situation you are trying to make it into.
The whole report includes Courey's account of reporting the rape to Anderson, hence the use of the word debatable.
Ultimately, it is irrelevant. The report did not provide a definitive answer and neither will this thread. My first comment in this thread is no more substantiated by facts than a comment denying Courey ever made a report.
It looks like we are agreed that Missouri needs to have policies regarding handling allegations of sexual assault in place and that Missouri should have investigated this incident after Courey's death.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 1:29 am to JDHLaw
Way too many words in this thread
Posted on 4/16/14 at 1:40 am to JDHLaw
I guess we can all agree that hopefully every university in the SEC has a chance to prove they would handle a rape situation with these circumstances better than Mizzou did.
Am I right?
frick, you people are horrible.
Am I right?
frick, you people are horrible.
This post was edited on 4/16/14 at 1:41 am
Posted on 4/16/14 at 1:54 am to JDHLaw
quote:
I didn't have an interest in the story, as such, until I read a bunch of Missouri posters posting about how this thread was about jealousy about Missouri's football program or whatever and decided to read the report to see what was up.
Trololololol
Posted on 4/16/14 at 2:36 am to roadhouse
quote:
I hope that you aren't this sloppy in your future endevours into the actual practice of law
If you slip and fall, are rear-ended, or have an animal mishap, he's the personal injury lawyer for you.
Posted on 4/16/14 at 7:07 am to roadhouse
quote:
I would like to get a female perspective on this. I think you'll find that not every woman wants people to take it upon their selves to report and launch an investigation into their own personal matters, especially when it is well over a year after the event, and even by the independent report, Sasha didn't want her own closest friends, family, or anyone to know about it.
I fully understand your point about this. However, if a rape goes unreported, then the likelyhood of more rapes occurring rises. Any time you allow a rapist to go unpunished he more likely to rape again....therefore, the safety of the community has to be considered, too.
That said, I honestly believe it was more a case of a situation being mishandled and not hidden away by a devious administration. This is NOT a Penn State type situation. They made a mistake, pure and simple. Some of our laws and policies are so complex, the average person does not understand what responsibility is assigned in a particular instance. Heresay enters in and people act according to what they have heard the law requires instead of what the law actually states. I trolled Missou pretty hard in another thread, but it was just that....a troll. I really don't believe Missou acted any differently than the way most other universities would have.
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