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re: SEC basketball ranked by various criteria
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:20 am to WildcatMike
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:20 am to WildcatMike
quote:
I would place Florida slightly ahead of Arkansas
You could make an argument for that bc of their 2 National Championships but Arkansas went to the NC game twice in a row, just didn't come out in the winning end in 1995.
Our appearances, etc should override all that and put us pretty even but that's my biased opinion.
1
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:28 am to DC RaiseHerBack
quote:
You could make an argument for that bc of their 2 National Championships but Arkansas went to the NC game twice in a row
You do recall that Florida's 2 NCs were in consecutive years?
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:28 am to KCM0Tiger
Great post! As you acknowledge in no way is that a perfect formula, but props for putting in actual numbers on some interesting stats!
And damn, I thought the last decade was something for an aberration for Auburn basketball, but yeah, historically we suck pretty bad. I should have savored those late 90's and early 2000's teams more.
Ole Miss got that last spot on lock-down though.
And damn, I thought the last decade was something for an aberration for Auburn basketball, but yeah, historically we suck pretty bad. I should have savored those late 90's and early 2000's teams more.
Ole Miss got that last spot on lock-down though.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:30 am to I-59 Tiger
quote:
You do recall that Florida's 2 NCs were in consecutive years?
Yes, I do. I said "we just didn't come out in the winning end" and expanded on my argument.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:33 am to DC RaiseHerBack
Thinks about this, Florida has won 2 Natty's and 4 Final 4s since Arkies last visit.
Dare I say Arkie is heading to being like NC State level? Living in the past and becoming mediocre ever since the glory days?
Dare I say Arkie is heading to being like NC State level? Living in the past and becoming mediocre ever since the glory days?
This post was edited on 1/30/15 at 8:35 am
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:35 am to KCM0Tiger
quote:
1. Kentucky--(1)
2. Arkansas--(2.25)
Tier 1
quote:
3. Mizzou--(4.25)
t4. Tennessee--(5.38)
t4. Alabama--(5.38)
t6. Florida--(5.5)
t6. LSU--(5.5)
8. Mississippi State--(6.5)
Tier 2
quote:
9.Vanderbilt--(8)
t10. Texas A&M--(8.63)
t10. Auburn (8.63)
12. South Carolina (8.75)
13. Georgia (8.88)
14. Ole Miss (10.38)
Tier 3
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:35 am to WildcatMike
quote:
WildcatMike
Do you pull for Alabama in football?
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:35 am to WildcatMike
quote:
Thinks about this, Florida has won 2 Natty's and 4 Final 4s since Arkies last visit.
Dare I say Arkie is heading to being like NC State level? Living in the past and becoming mediocre ever since the glory days?
We should make the tourney this year. Does this have to turn into a flame thread? It was going pretty well imo.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:37 am to I-59 Tiger
Why would I pull for Bama? I actually have a MS from LSU.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:39 am to WildcatMike
Okay.Well your prior post just illustrated why a lot of people claim they've never seen a UK basketball fan and Ala football fan in the same room. They are one and the same. 
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:40 am to DC RaiseHerBack
Yea, NC State occasionally makes it to the tourney as well. What's your point making the NCAAs this year?
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:40 am to NeathOrangeandBlue
quote:
It's even hard for me to imagine teams like LSU or Alabama to be in a down period
I wish I was in this boat.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:42 am to WildcatMike
Well, You must miss RTR in multiple threads.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:45 am to WildcatMike
quote:
Yea, NC State occasionally makes it to the tourney as well. What's your point making the NCAAs this year?
We're trying to get back there and the fan support is still there after all these down years?
Also, as it looks now...we'll make it, Florida will not.
This is a pretty good discussion so I don't think the rest needed to be said. I can agree to disagree if I so choose. What is it with you Kentucky fans and your interjecting our irrelevancy in a good discussion thread? Sheesh.
This post was edited on 1/30/15 at 8:48 am
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:49 am to Stonehog
quote:
NCAA Appearances
Georgia--11
Mississippi State--10
Auburn--8
South Carolina--8
Ole Miss--7
Holy shite.
why did you stop at these schools, considering the 2 above us each just have 1 more appearance?
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:57 am to KCM0Tiger
Cut and pasted from the other thread
This should really be the primary criteria for debate for several reasons...
#1 Regular season conference championships don't mean much any more
I grew up in an age when they did mean something and wish they still were a big deal but post season conference tourneys have pretty much killed the regular season. You could do a thread on this alone but it will never return to the old days because the post season feeds the money hogs and they prefer greed to gameplay.
#2 Conference tournament champions don't mean much either
a) Comparing the SEC tourney to the SWC / Big 8 / Big 12 / ACC is a crapshoot at best. Hogs were clearly the stars of the SWC and Jayhawks were the stars of the Big 8. South Carolina and Texas A&M were the runts in their respective conferences in MCBB so not much to really see there.
b) As obscene as Kentucky is above their SEC brothers it is not a true picture of how great that domination was. UK went unbeaten on their home court for about 12 years (a record that will never be broken) and Adolph Rupp still has the best winning percentage of basketball coaches at major basketball schools. I mention this as they played no SEC basketball tournament in 1935 nor did they play one from 1952 to 1979 which means for between 25 and 30 years of UK dominance would be even more apparent and some of the modern coaches who passed Rupp in all time wins would never have done so.
c) Post season conference tournaments are about money not quality. If they wanted to do any post season conference tournament they should do a double elimination format (like baseball) and limit it to the top 50% - top 75% of how folks finished the regular season. This would bring back the importance of the regular season and it would also mean better gameplay during the season as losses mean more if it cost you the post season. CFB actually got this right for ages yet they will crap that out if they ever expand past a 4 team playoff.
d) Coaches are now viewed (rightly or wrongly) almost entirely by their value in March Madness over any other metric. Basketball schools are schools that go to Sweet Sixteens on a regular basis decade after decade. The often quoted metric of Final Fours (note plural, not singular) is further proof just how outdated any conference regular season or tourney championship has become.
#3 March Madness is now the standard no matter how flawed it is
a) If you made the NCAA tournament (or the old NIT prior to the point shaving scandal) before 1975 it was probably a bigger deal. From 1939 to 1950 it was only 8 teams and in 51' and 52' it was only 16 teams. To get in you really had to be a Top 10 type team and this is where they really should have stopped. From 53' to 75' the numbers grew till the 32 team format in 1975. They really should have stopped there and gone to double elimination then instead of watering the product down to the current crappy 68.
b) In the current incarnation getting a bid is no longer a big deal so eliminating that metric is probably a good idea. Limiting it to just the Sweet Sixteen teams is not only better but provides a rough equivalent to keep early teams (when the tourney only had 8 or 16) somewhat in line with modern teams. A 16 team field in 1952 should be roughly equivalent to a Sweet Sixteen field in 2012.
c) The tournament is greatly flawed due to bias in seeding and media market values but generally getting to Final Fours is a big deal and getting to multiple ones separates the men from the boys. Nobody will deny Alabama and Missouri their basketball success but they have yet to break through to the next level. They are still better overall compared to a school like Mississippi State who actually made a final Four but has been more like a 1 hit wonder than a decade after decade upper tier program.
#4 All Americans is a subjective metric
a) Alabama is the greatest FBS college football team out there. They won in my great grandfathers era (and I am old) and they will still be winning long after your kids generation (as long as college football is still being played) are dead and buried. That being said, how many Heisman's have been won by a long line of formidable Alabama players? All American voters have similar bias over history and subjective measures are harder to define. I am reminded of this Monopoly card
b) As replacement you could have used NBA picks or been even more restrictive as to 1st round only NBA picks but even that has flaws. How many top picks washed out and how many low picks or post picks went onto better NBA careers? However, with the trouble modern NBA players get into maybe this Monopoly card now applies
quote:
SEC schools in the Sweet Sixteen or better
Tier# -- SS -- EE -- FF -- RU -- NC
1 ........ 40 .. 35 ... 16 ... 04 ... 08 = Kentucky, (8) NC's under (5) different coaches
2 .............................................. = none
3 ........ 10 .. 10 ... 06 ... 01 ... 01 = Arkansas
3 ........ 09 .. 08 ... 05 ... 01 ... 02 = Florida*
3 ........ 09 .. 06 ... 04 ... 00 ... 00 = LSU
4 ........ 08 .. 01 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Alabama
4 ........ 07 .. 01 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Tennessee
4 ........ 06 .. 04 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Missouri**
4 ........ 06 .. 01 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Vanderbilt
5 ........ 03 .. 01 ... 01 ... 00 ... 00 = Mississippi State
5 ........ 02 .. 01 ... 01 ... 00 ... 00 = Georgia
5 ........ 04 .. 01 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Auburn
6 ........ 03 .. 00 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = South Carolina
6 ........ 03 .. 00 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Texas A&M
7 ........ 01 .. 00 ... 00 ... 00 ... 00 = Ole Miss, really just 1 step ahead of some pitiful basketball school like Northwestern.
* 1987 Florida Sweet Sixteen was vacated
** 1994 Missouri Sweet Sixteen and Elite Eight were vacated
This should really be the primary criteria for debate for several reasons...
#1 Regular season conference championships don't mean much any more
I grew up in an age when they did mean something and wish they still were a big deal but post season conference tourneys have pretty much killed the regular season. You could do a thread on this alone but it will never return to the old days because the post season feeds the money hogs and they prefer greed to gameplay.
#2 Conference tournament champions don't mean much either
a) Comparing the SEC tourney to the SWC / Big 8 / Big 12 / ACC is a crapshoot at best. Hogs were clearly the stars of the SWC and Jayhawks were the stars of the Big 8. South Carolina and Texas A&M were the runts in their respective conferences in MCBB so not much to really see there.
b) As obscene as Kentucky is above their SEC brothers it is not a true picture of how great that domination was. UK went unbeaten on their home court for about 12 years (a record that will never be broken) and Adolph Rupp still has the best winning percentage of basketball coaches at major basketball schools. I mention this as they played no SEC basketball tournament in 1935 nor did they play one from 1952 to 1979 which means for between 25 and 30 years of UK dominance would be even more apparent and some of the modern coaches who passed Rupp in all time wins would never have done so.
c) Post season conference tournaments are about money not quality. If they wanted to do any post season conference tournament they should do a double elimination format (like baseball) and limit it to the top 50% - top 75% of how folks finished the regular season. This would bring back the importance of the regular season and it would also mean better gameplay during the season as losses mean more if it cost you the post season. CFB actually got this right for ages yet they will crap that out if they ever expand past a 4 team playoff.
d) Coaches are now viewed (rightly or wrongly) almost entirely by their value in March Madness over any other metric. Basketball schools are schools that go to Sweet Sixteens on a regular basis decade after decade. The often quoted metric of Final Fours (note plural, not singular) is further proof just how outdated any conference regular season or tourney championship has become.
#3 March Madness is now the standard no matter how flawed it is
a) If you made the NCAA tournament (or the old NIT prior to the point shaving scandal) before 1975 it was probably a bigger deal. From 1939 to 1950 it was only 8 teams and in 51' and 52' it was only 16 teams. To get in you really had to be a Top 10 type team and this is where they really should have stopped. From 53' to 75' the numbers grew till the 32 team format in 1975. They really should have stopped there and gone to double elimination then instead of watering the product down to the current crappy 68.
b) In the current incarnation getting a bid is no longer a big deal so eliminating that metric is probably a good idea. Limiting it to just the Sweet Sixteen teams is not only better but provides a rough equivalent to keep early teams (when the tourney only had 8 or 16) somewhat in line with modern teams. A 16 team field in 1952 should be roughly equivalent to a Sweet Sixteen field in 2012.
c) The tournament is greatly flawed due to bias in seeding and media market values but generally getting to Final Fours is a big deal and getting to multiple ones separates the men from the boys. Nobody will deny Alabama and Missouri their basketball success but they have yet to break through to the next level. They are still better overall compared to a school like Mississippi State who actually made a final Four but has been more like a 1 hit wonder than a decade after decade upper tier program.
#4 All Americans is a subjective metric
a) Alabama is the greatest FBS college football team out there. They won in my great grandfathers era (and I am old) and they will still be winning long after your kids generation (as long as college football is still being played) are dead and buried. That being said, how many Heisman's have been won by a long line of formidable Alabama players? All American voters have similar bias over history and subjective measures are harder to define. I am reminded of this Monopoly card
b) As replacement you could have used NBA picks or been even more restrictive as to 1st round only NBA picks but even that has flaws. How many top picks washed out and how many low picks or post picks went onto better NBA careers? However, with the trouble modern NBA players get into maybe this Monopoly card now applies
Posted on 1/30/15 at 8:58 am to KCM0Tiger
NCAA Appearances:
Kentucky--53
Arkansas--29
Mizzou--26
LSU--20
Alabama--20
Tennessee--20
Florida--19
Vanderbilt--13
Texas A&M--12
Georgia--11
Mississippi State--10
Auburn--8
South Carolina--8
Ole Miss--7
This is not "apples to apples." If we are discussing Southeastern Conference it is imperative to recall that until 1975 only one team from a conference could participate in the NCAA tournament. In the 1960's and 1970's Vanderbilt and Tennessee had some outstanding teams but their second place finish precluded them from the tourney. Its highly likely that many of the Arkansas and Missouri teams that made the tournament through the 1974 season would have come in second behind Kentucky.
A fair formula would be to deduct 25-30% of these teams NCAA appearances in this comparison.
Kentucky--53
Arkansas--29
Mizzou--26
LSU--20
Alabama--20
Tennessee--20
Florida--19
Vanderbilt--13
Texas A&M--12
Georgia--11
Mississippi State--10
Auburn--8
South Carolina--8
Ole Miss--7
This is not "apples to apples." If we are discussing Southeastern Conference it is imperative to recall that until 1975 only one team from a conference could participate in the NCAA tournament. In the 1960's and 1970's Vanderbilt and Tennessee had some outstanding teams but their second place finish precluded them from the tourney. Its highly likely that many of the Arkansas and Missouri teams that made the tournament through the 1974 season would have come in second behind Kentucky.
A fair formula would be to deduct 25-30% of these teams NCAA appearances in this comparison.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 9:02 am to WildcatMike
quote:
I would place Florida slightly ahead of Arkansas
I put them about even but move Florida below Arkansas on the list because of the probation and because they are still a 1 hit wonder with Billy. While most will just give NR or ES props, the Hogs have been going to the NCAA's since the very beginning back in the late 30's or early 40's.
Posted on 1/30/15 at 9:30 am to WildcatMike
quote:
Phi Slamma Jamma was a 3 year cycle in the SWAC.
Have to place Arkie with Florida as a tier under Kentucky, then LSU.
As with most conf. there was always some other team that would step up year to year Houston had some other good teams Texas Tech had some good teams but for the most part you are right in the old SWC it was Ark. then everyone else. I would not disagree with it being KY. then AR Fla then everyone else
Posted on 1/30/15 at 9:33 am to KCM0Tiger
(no message)
This post was edited on 1/30/15 at 9:34 am
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