quote:
Salon, et al, are very much of the opinion that certain personal freedoms ought to be infringed and removed. If the Left wants to restrict gun rights and insist that some apparatus be in place so as to restrict "privilege" at my expense, then what should I call them? I personally disagree with certain things that the Left hold dear, but I don't actively contribute to groups that would want to destroy or infringe upon those rights. Libertarians don't attempt to use the State as a means of force to exert their beliefs - the Left very much does.

I'm not sure how a group of people that are intently marching towards Marxist theory is anything *but* antithetical to Libertarian ideals. I'd like to hear your counterpoint. Salon, et al, are very much of the opinion that certain personal freedoms ought to be infringed and removed. If the Left wants to restrict gun rights and insist that some apparatus be in place so as to restrict "privilege" at my expense, then what should I call them? I personally disagree with certain things that the Left hold dear, but I don't actively contribute to groups that would want to destroy or infringe upon those rights. Libertarians don't attempt to use the State as a means of force to exert their beliefs - the Left very much does.

I'm not sure how a group of people that are intently marching towards Marxist theory is anything *but* antithetical to Libertarian ideals. I'd like to hear your counterpoint.

My counterpoints contain multitudes:

1. Unless you're an anarcho-capitalist, you believe in using the State to exert your beliefs too (for instance, that theft is wrong). All it means is you have a smaller set of beliefs. Therefore if you're not Stefan Molyneux or some similar crank it's disingenuous to use "THE STATE! MEN WITH GUNS!" as an argument ending boogeyman.

2. I could replace everything in your first paragraph with "the right," and if I swapped the gun example for something else it would map fine. Yet you and most libertarians reserve this visceral dislike for "the left." This is especially apparent by the idea that "the left" in America uses Marxist theory, which means you hold either an exaggerated view of their beliefs or a wildly overbroad definition of Marxism.

3. Foreign policy is a thing. I dislike libertarians who ignore it or insist that it's optional. The implication of most right-libertarian arguments is that it's justifiable to lend support to an ideology whose posture is "BOMB EM" because they also can be counted on to oppose a single-digit increase in the marginal tax rates or whatever we're defining as Full Marxist these days.

3a. (I'm eliding Rand Paul because he is an exception and most of his "libertarian" supporters see Walker and Cruz and other straight-up cons as acceptable second choices rather than spoiling their vote.)

4. Even the right can't be counted on in this country to follow through on their promises and display competence. Get them in power and they believe in cutting taxes, not government. Personally I find deficit-and-spend worse than tax-and-spend because at least the latter is morally honest, it doesn't foist it off on the next generation. When a socialist politician fricks up, they discredit socialism. When a capitalist politician (or one professing such) fricks up, they discredit capitalism. You want to know why Millenials lean left? Just look at the avatars of the right during their formative years.

5. In addition, the right reacted to Ron Paul by buying into the dumb parts of his platform and rejecting the smart ones. Throughout the last eight years I've been told, first by Lew Rockwell and now by the rank-and-file right, how our reaction to the financial crisis would lead to various inflation doomsdays. Every crisis is Weimar Germany, even when they're actually 1990s Japan. Meanwhile Europe, which reacted by enacting the austerity measures craved by the right, is in the shitter. Just as war stupidity trumps economic stupidity, macroeconomic stupidity trumps "hurf durf look at this silly NSF grant."

6. Libertarianism has three legs: economic liberty, social liberty, and peace. The right only even pretends to be a friend of libertarianism on one of those, and when push comes to shove they always frick up in spectacular fashion. Yet for some reason "libertarians" in America still see themselves as slightly heterodox part of the right, and the left as "the enemy." This unwillingness to see the right for what it is has led to them being enabled, time and again, by libertarians buying into their bullshite when they're in opposition and then making excuses for them in power. "Well, the left is worse." "Well, my taxes are lower." "Well, we'll help them elect a TRUE conservative next time." Eisenhower is dead. Reagan is dead (and he wasn't any great shakes anyway). This is what they are now.

This post was edited on 3/12/15 at 1:07 pm

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Posted by RoyalAir

Detroit

Member since Dec 2012

5878 posts

Posted on 3/12/15 at 1:28 pm to Iosh

quote:
1. Unless you're an anarcho-capitalist, you believe in using the State to exert your beliefs too (for instance, that theft is wrong). All it means is you have a smaller set of beliefs. Therefore if you're not Stefan Molyneux or some similar crank it's disingenuous to use "THE STATE! MEN WITH GUNS!" as an argument ending boogeyman.

Government is a necessary evil, sure. I'm not an anarchist. But the smaller, the absolutely better. The organized left largely does not believe this. By and large, they believe that not only does the government have the power to influence individual lives, but that it has a moral responsibility to do so. This is antithetical to libertarian thought.

quote:
2. I could replace everything in your first paragraph with "the right," and if I swapped the gun example for something else it would map fine. Yet you and most libertarians reserve this visceral dislike for "the left." This is especially apparent by the idea that "the left" in America uses Marxist theory, which means you hold either an exaggerated view of their beliefs or a wildly overbroad definition of Marxism.

Government redistribution of resources is a typically accepted platform of the left through progressive taxation. Barriers to entry on basis of race/gender (e.g., government contracts exclusively to minority owned businesses) is another institution the Left is typically on board with, as it helps to reduce "abuse of privilege." Income inequality and caps on compensation are also included, and decidedly not capitalistic or libertarian. If none of this is moving into Marxist territory, then you're right, we don't agree on what that even means.

quote:
3. Foreign policy is a thing. I dislike that libertarians who ignore it or insist that it's optional. The implication of most right-libertarian arguments is that it's justifiable to lend support to an ideology whose posture is "BOMB EM" because they also can be counted on to oppose a single-digit increase in the marginal tax rates or whatever we're defining as Full Marxist these days.

3a. (I'm eliding Rand Paul because he is an exception and most of his "libertarian" supporters see Walker and Cruz and other straight-up cons as acceptable second choices rather than spoiling their vote.)

Straw man. Said nothing about foreign policy in my original post.

quote:
4. Even the right can't be counted on in this country to follow through on their promises and display competence. Get them in power and they believe in cutting taxes, not government. Personally I find deficit-and-spend worse than tax-and-spend because at least the latter is morally honest, it doesn't foist it off on the next generation. When a socialist politician fricks up, they discredit socialism. When a capitalist politician (or one professing such) fricks up, they discredit capitalism. You want to know why Millenials lean left? Just look at the avatars of the right during their formative years.

Though I said nothing about any of this, I'll disagree with you here. When a socialist fricks up in this country, they're largely given a free pass by a complicit media, and the blame is placed on capitalism. Reference the rest of this thread. When a "capitalist" fricks up, it's because of corporatism (which is antithetical to libertarianism, again), but is blamed on capitalism.

quote:

5. In addition, the right reacted to Ron Paul by buying into the dumb parts of his platform and rejecting the smart ones. Throughout the last eight years I've been told, first by Lew Rockwell and now by the rank-and-file right, how our reaction to the financial crisis would lead to various inflation doomsdays. Every crisis is Weimar Germany, even when they're actually 1990s Japan. Meanwhile Europe, which reacted by enacting the austerity measures craved by the right, is in the shitter. Just as war stupidity trumps economic stupidity, macroeconomic stupidity trumps "hurf durf look at this silly NSF grant."

Again, I said nothing about this, either. But these chickens haven't come home to roost yet, all the same. The mortgage bubble was inflating in the late 90s, but it took a decade for it to burst. The government debt bubble has a much higher ceiling, and probably won't come due for another generation. Doesn't change the fact that it's still ultimately going to burst.

quote:

6. Libertarianism has three legs: economic liberty, social liberty, and peace. The right only even pretends to be a friend of libertarianism on one of those, and when push comes to shove they always frick up in spectacular fashion. Yet for some reason "libertarians" in America still see themselves as slightly heterodox part of the right, and the left as "the enemy." This unwillingness to see the right for what it is has led to them being enabled, time and again, by libertarians buying into their bullshite when they're in opposition and then making excuses for them in power. "Well, the left is worse." "Well, we'll help them elect a TRUE conservative next time." Eisenhower is dead. Reagan is dead (and he wasn't any great shakes anyway). This is what they are now.

I'm well aware of the three legs. The rest is trying to lump me in with the right - which I don't claim. I've never voted for a Republican, and don't intend to do so.

You want to know the primary reason why I referred to the Left as the enemy? I'm quite content with the Left believing as it does, and moving whichever way it desires. But the primary difference between the Left and the Right vs Libertarianism is this: The Right may just call me a dope smoking hippie **** (none of which are true). But the Left openly and honestly desires to kill me, and people like me. It's not terribly complicated.

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Posted by Iosh

Bureau of Interstellar Immigration

Member since Dec 2012

18941 posts

Posted on 3/12/15 at 2:51 pm to RoyalAir

I number long posts because breaking quotes is painful to read.

quote:
1. Government is a necessary evil, sure. I'm not an anarchist. But the smaller, the absolutely better. The organized left largely does not believe this. By and large, they believe that not only does the government have the power to influence individual lives, but that it has a moral responsibility to do so. This is antithetical to libertarian thought.

2. Government redistribution of resources is a typically accepted platform of the left through progressive taxation. Barriers to entry on basis of race/gender (e.g., government contracts exclusively to minority owned businesses) is another institution the Left is typically on board with, as it helps to reduce "abuse of privilege." Income inequality and caps on compensation are also included, and decidedly not capitalistic or libertarian. If none of this is moving into Marxist territory, then you're right, we don't agree on what that even means.

3. Straw man. Said nothing about foreign policy in my original post.

4. Though I said nothing about any of this, I'll disagree with you here. When a socialist fricks up in this country, they're largely given a free pass by a complicit media, and the blame is placed on capitalism. Reference the rest of this thread. When a "capitalist" fricks up, it's because of corporatism (which is antithetical to libertarianism, again), but is blamed on capitalism.

5. Again, I said nothing about this, either. But these chickens haven't come home to roost yet, all the same. The mortgage bubble was inflating in the late 90s, but it took a decade for it to burst. The government debt bubble has a much higher ceiling, and probably won't come due for another generation. Doesn't change the fact that it's still ultimately going to burst.

6. I'm well aware of the three legs. The rest is trying to lump me in with the right - which I don't claim. I've never voted for a Republican, and don't intend to do so.

1. The organized right largely doesn't believe this either. It's literally nothing but a useful talking point for them. The last conservative to shrink government was Eisenhower, and he was a moderate.

2. Nothing in this list is Marxist except maybe caps on compensation. "Government redistribution" through "progressive taxation" is a feature of pretty much every first-world country. Nor did Marx invent it. Marx would have hated any focus on race/gender as it did not pertain to class. You can read Greek or Roman sources expressing concern with economic inequality as it existed then; modern concerns date at least to Rousseau. Marxism to you appears to be "a thing I don't like."

3. Yes, hence the term "libertarians who ignore it."

4. We'll have to agree to disagree here I suppose, as I don't think anyone gets passes.

5. What chickens do you imagine will come home to roost? And more importantly, when? If your default posture is just to constantly say something is coming, whether it's inflation or recession or whatever, you're bound to be right eventually. Ron Paul predicted the financial crisis of 2007. He also predicted the financial crises of 2003, 1999, 1995, etc.

6. I'm lumping you in with the right because you reserved special venom for the left, as opposed to rejecting the left-right dichotomy entirely. Libertarians who do this are useful idiots for Republicans regardless of whether they formally affiliate or not.

This post was edited on 3/12/15 at 2:58 pm

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