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Spinoff thread : The real issue behind the tragedy in South Carolina?
Posted on 6/19/15 at 2:42 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 2:42 pm
Addressing the real "smoking gun" and the issue of mental health care in the USA
A generation ago we had long term locked facilities to care for those with issues that made them a threat to themselves or others. Across the country these sites have been closed but the need is still there. The modern treatment is outpatient (which keeps costs down but does not work) or "mental health care by police power" which means you get locked up, treated for 24 - 72 hours and released before any real progress is made.
If you have serious mental health issues (say paranoid schizophrenic) you need to be medicated and it takes weeks to months of daily medicine to get it under control. This does not happen when you are locked up on a short term hold (24 = 72 hours) and released. Until you deal with this, you can blame all sorts of prejudices that are blamed for fatal killing yet they never really get at the root of the problem.
A generation ago we had long term locked facilities to care for those with issues that made them a threat to themselves or others. Across the country these sites have been closed but the need is still there. The modern treatment is outpatient (which keeps costs down but does not work) or "mental health care by police power" which means you get locked up, treated for 24 - 72 hours and released before any real progress is made.
If you have serious mental health issues (say paranoid schizophrenic) you need to be medicated and it takes weeks to months of daily medicine to get it under control. This does not happen when you are locked up on a short term hold (24 = 72 hours) and released. Until you deal with this, you can blame all sorts of prejudices that are blamed for fatal killing yet they never really get at the root of the problem.
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Posted on 6/19/15 at 2:48 pm to Cheese Grits
Citations? We do still have long-term mental health facilities. People are committed to them all the time. I think you're touching on something but your thesis needs further refining to be substantial.
This post was edited on 6/19/15 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 2:51 pm to Cheese Grits
Amen.
The fact that mental health services get lumped in with welfare is a huge issue. We just keep cutting those services when we need them the most. Several years ago the government began shutting down psychiatric facilities and forcing private entities to service these people. And now they can't keep up.
When I call in a mobile assessment on a 12 year old who has written out a plan to kill his foster mother and sister but the best answer I can get from three area hospitals is "we don't have enough beds" then we have a HUGE fricking problem.
And no one who matters is making an effort to address it.
The fact that mental health services get lumped in with welfare is a huge issue. We just keep cutting those services when we need them the most. Several years ago the government began shutting down psychiatric facilities and forcing private entities to service these people. And now they can't keep up.
When I call in a mobile assessment on a 12 year old who has written out a plan to kill his foster mother and sister but the best answer I can get from three area hospitals is "we don't have enough beds" then we have a HUGE fricking problem.
And no one who matters is making an effort to address it.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:07 pm to Cheese Grits
That dude is not mentally ill, he knew what the hell he was doing. He wanted to start a race war, had to carry out his mission. If he's mentally ill then all terrorist in the middle east are mentally ill to believe they'll go to heaven and get 82 virgins if they kill christians. All gang bangers are mentally ill if they want to kill a person for wearing different colors, from a different hood. Mentally ill crap is a cop out. I have a family members that are mentally ill, they never talked about killing people, racist beliefs, want a race war, etc.
Mentally Ill people don't go around and say "they" are taking over this country, they don't wear white separatist flags from fricking africa. He knew what he was doing.
Mentally Ill people don't go around and say "they" are taking over this country, they don't wear white separatist flags from fricking africa. He knew what he was doing.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:08 pm to randomways
quote:
We do still have long-term mental health facilities.
As example, Belle is in Louisville and they had Our Lady of Peace. It was a long term facility (stays of 1 year to life) and was one of the only facilities in the state. It is now short term (1 day to a few weeks) and is no longer locked as all patients are voluntary and can leave at any time. If you tell a person they can leave whenever they feel well you are not dealing with reality.
As I travel across the south it seems most if not all of these facilities have been closed or turned into short term "repair shops"
quote:
People are committed to them all the time.
Nashville may be the closest to a mental health hub and even they are woefully equipped. When you say "committed" you may not be correct in the old meaning versus the new one. In modern america it is almost impossible to get a person committed, and even if you do, they can refuse medication. This makes long term treatment almost impossible.
In the past "threat to self or others" was viewed through a very long window but now it applies only to seconds or hours. If you land in jail in such a state and they can forced meds, but once calm that power goes away. In a hospital setting it is even worse and meds may not be administered in the first pace if the patient refuses.
quote:
I think you're touching on something but your thesis needs further refining to be substantial.
Do you have said facilities in your town and if so have you ever gone through the system to see how it actually works?
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:11 pm to bayou2003
quote:
That dude is not mentally ill, he knew what the hell he was doing. He wanted to start a race war, had to carry out his mission. If he's mentally ill then all terrorist in the middle east are mentally ill to believe they'll go to heaven and get 82 virgins if they kill christians. All gang bangers are mentally ill if they want to kill a person for wearing different colors, from a different hood. Mentally ill crap is a cop out. I have a family members that are mentally ill, they never talked about killing people, racist beliefs, want a race war, etc.
Mentally Ill people don't go around and say "they" are taking over this country, they don't wear white separatist flags from fricking africa. He knew what he was doing.
Maybe, and maybe he is and the hate instilled into him put him over the edge. I am not disagreeing with you but we need to know before we can find where it came from. Personally I think he's a dimwitted imbecile who was raised to hate and he was trying to make poppa proud, but again I don't know that.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:12 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
And no one who matters is making an effort to address it.
People are and it will get worse, the problem is politicians and corporations won't do anything because they don't see profit (or enough profit) to do what is needed to address the problem.
Speak to some of the older judges in Jefferson County and they are well aware of mental health care by police power and can cite just how inefficient the system is that does not work.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:13 pm to bayou2003
quote:
That dude is not mentally ill
Oh he's very much mentally ill. Given some of the things I've read, there's a solid chance he wasn't diagnosed and was self-medicating with opiates as well. That's not at all uncommon with some mental illnesses.
That doesn't mean he's any less guilty of the crimes he committed. One is not mutually exclusive with the other. People need to stop equating being mentally ill with "getting off" when it comes to a crime. Statistically, those who plead insanity end up serving more time anyway just by the nature of the conditions of release (they have to show mental competence in order to be released).
This post was edited on 6/19/15 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:15 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Oh he's very much mentally ill. Given some of the things I've read, there's a solid chance he wasn't diagnosed and was self-medicating with opiates as well. That's not at all uncommon with some mental illnesses.
That doesn't mean he's any less guilty of the crimes he committed. One is not mutually exclusive with the other.
So what percentage of gang bangers and terrorists are mentally ill. Some of them are also on drugs. I've never heard anyone use the "mental illness" excuse for them when they kill out of hate. They are just thugs and terrorists that should have known better.lol.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:17 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Oh he's very much mentally ill.
I am going to say the odds are almost 100%
quote:
he wasn't diagnosed and was self-medicating
He may have been diagnosed but chose to self medicate. Folks would be staggered to see how much alcohol and drug abuse is tied to "self medication" issues. Again, they see a result and never see the real underlying issue.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 3:18 pm to bayou2003
quote:
So what percentage of gang bangers and terrorists are mentally ill. Some of them are also on drugs. I've never heard anyone use the "mental illness" excuse for them when they kill out of hate. They are just thugs and terrorists that should have known better.lol.
I'd absolutely argue that if you're willing to kill others with no regard for human life that you're very likely mentally ill. Mental illness knows no bounds when it comes to race and gender. This was a conversation we should've had YEARS ago.
Stop trying to make this a "oh he's mentally ill because he's white" argument. It's a pitiful arse cop out.
This post was edited on 6/19/15 at 3:20 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 6:29 pm to Cheese Grits
No the real issue is a pussy arse white boy hates black people so much, he went into a church and killed them in cold blood. Like Jon Stewart said, there is no nuance to this, so stop trying to explain away this kid's hatred.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 6:29 pm to Agforlife
quote:
Personally I think he's a dimwitted imbecile who was raised to hate and he was trying to make poppa proud, but again I don't know that.
I agree. The statements he made to the people he was killing indicate that dear old trailer-park dad was his motivator:
"Y'all are raping our women." "Y'all are taking our country."
Spoken like a true idiot who has never had an original thought.
If we'd cut back significantly on the welfare programs and focus more on public mental health, we'd be able to pinpoint some of these social aberrants before they pulled the triggers of their guns.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 6:40 pm to The Spleen
quote:
white boy hates black people so much, he went into a church and killed them in cold blood. Like Jon Stewart said, there is no nuance to this, so stop trying to explain away this kid's hatred.
That's what it comes down to. Guy specifically picked that church out because he knew the historical significance of it. Dude is not mentally ill, knew what the hell he was doing. Even admitted the church people treated him nice. Wow. Scum. They didn't look at his race, welcomed him in with open arms to have him turn on them because of their race.
He was mentally ill enough to drive away after murdering those people because of their skin color, was mentally ill enough to find the location of that specific church and he didn't even live in the damn town.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 6:56 pm to bayou2003
However, just last week he was telling acquaintances that he was going to shoot up the College of Charleston. It would seem that he settled on the AME church out of convenience and access rather than mostly for his supposed hatred.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 7:04 pm to bayou2003
quote:
He was mentally ill enough to drive away after murdering those people because of their skin color, was mentally ill enough to find the location of that specific church and he didn't even live in the damn town.
So the mentally ill are too stupid to organize a plan and carry it out ah?
FYI, there is a Southern California law professor (Elyn Saks) who is a diagnosed schizophrenic. She is so cognizant despite her mental illness that she graduated with honors from Yale and Vandy. She suffered from auditory hallucinations that told her to harm people before she got treatment. Thankfully she did not act on them.
Just because someone is "crazy" doesn't mean they're stupid or not functional.
This post was edited on 6/19/15 at 7:05 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 7:05 pm to Cheese Grits
Pharma companies grease too many political hands. Guns are always gonna be the go to for blame.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 7:07 pm to Cheese Grits
He just don't like colored people.
Posted on 6/19/15 at 7:17 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
So the mentally ill are too stupid to organize a plan and carry it out ah?
Dude wanted to start a race war, he killed out of hate, not mental illness. Hell by your logic the damn guys that went to Texas to shoot up the people putting on the Muhummad cartoon contest were also mentally ill. I mean they were about to commit mass murder. I don't think they were mentally ill just like I don't think this kid was mentally ill. He's a terrorist just like those people are. He wanted a war just like they want. There's a reason why he had certain flags on his jacket, guy wanted a race war, he hated blacks, ready to kill them. Just like some Muslims hate christians, are ready to kill them.
This post was edited on 6/19/15 at 7:18 pm
Posted on 6/19/15 at 7:22 pm to bayou2003
Serious question: Does it matter why he murdered people?
There will always be murderers and reasons. ( Jodi Foster, National Socialism, organized crime, Cannibalism, necrophilia, Satan made me do it etc ). Motive is only important in a prosecutory and academic sense.
The question is, are you prepared to defend yourself and your family?
There will always be murderers and reasons. ( Jodi Foster, National Socialism, organized crime, Cannibalism, necrophilia, Satan made me do it etc ). Motive is only important in a prosecutory and academic sense.
The question is, are you prepared to defend yourself and your family?
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