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re: Nice opinion piece on income inequality from CNN
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:03 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:03 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
It's not inherently wrong or right -- it's entirely dependent on the circumstances.
And yet every piece on these focuses on the money amounts. Very few actually deal with the character of the CEOs or their morality. It's far more fun to report "HE MADE $45M ON HIS SEVERANCE PACKAGE!" (Nevermind the fact that the severance package may have been negotiated in part to provide a disincentive for other companies considering a takeover of the company.)
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Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:04 am to Stonehog
quote:
No, it says you should give everything to the poor until you only have enough for basic necessities like food and shelter.
Modern interpolation and faulty interpretation at its best.
We had a Biblical discussion in another thread and I think one of the biggest problems is that it really can be interpreted many ways -- but I believe this fictional Jesus character was certainly advocating that you surrender your wealth.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:05 am to Stonehog
quote:
No, it says you should give everything to the poor until you only have enough for basic necessities like food and shelter.
No, it doesn't. It says sell all you have and give the money to the poor. It doesn't say anything about only having enough for basic necessities. Of course, that demonstrates that it's hyperbole for a point and that doesn't suit your agenda at all.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:05 am to the808bass
quote:And that;s why the system is complete bullshite
(Nevermind the fact that the severance package may have been negotiated in part to provide a disincentive for other companies considering a takeover of the company.)
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:06 am to the808bass
quote:
And yet every piece on these focuses on the money amounts. Very few actually deal with the character of the CEOs or their morality. It's far more fun to report "HE MADE $45M ON HIS SEVERANCE PACKAGE!" (Nevermind the fact that the severance package may have been negotiated in part to provide a disincentive for other companies considering a takeover of the company.)
I can see some truth in that -- I suppose I didn't look closely enough at the situation and simply projected my opinion onto everyone else. In fact, that's exactly what I did.
I keep forgetting that I'm a centrist now, and not a liberal.
That aside: There's nothing inherently wrong with earning a lot of money but it ought to be said I'm not saying the opposite either.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:10 am to the808bass
quote:
It is a dumb line of discussion. But it's the underlying assumption of the whole argument. "Who could need $125M dollars (or insert random number in the millions)? It's too much." That's the underlying driving thought behind it all. If making a large sum of money is inherently neutral, the argument becomes far less weighty.
Not entirely. 2 or 3 people in this thread have pretty clearly articulated the underlying assumption and it has nothing to do with any amount of money. The argument is the rate of income growth for the wealthy has grown at a much faster rate than the rate of growth for the lower and middle class. The ones who have tried to put a dollar figure on it are those that accuse of the ones of pointing out the problem as jealous of the rich. It's not about some people making too much, it's about a certain class of people seeing their income growth outpace the other classes at an alarming rate.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:11 am to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
But we are talking about economic innovation. The incentive for individuals to research and create things on their own where the government does not have to contribute their own resources. Out governemnt also supports innovation and does a very good job of it although most innovation is seen and used by the military first.
In other words what Bill Gates and other garage inventors have done to change the world is where our system has an advantage over others.
ETA: To clarify my comments on Hitler, you could say Hitler used his evils and absolute control to achieve innovation above what his system should have allowed. He acquired extra resources through invasion and stirred up the masses with his propoganda and inspired them to innovate for Germany and their "German Pride".
In other words what Bill Gates and other garage inventors have done to change the world is where our system has an advantage over others.
ETA: To clarify my comments on Hitler, you could say Hitler used his evils and absolute control to achieve innovation above what his system should have allowed. He acquired extra resources through invasion and stirred up the masses with his propoganda and inspired them to innovate for Germany and their "German Pride".
This post was edited on 4/11/14 at 9:16 am
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:12 am to the808bass
quote:
This is clearly directed not just at the subset of the rich but those who are exploiters.
Agreed. I went and read the context around my verses after I posted them. I figured you'd have a decent reply.
quote:
The verses before this indicate that the poor should be proud of their exalted position within the body of Christ and that the rich should enjoy their humility within the body of Christ.
Yes. Once again though, touching on the aspects of the rich that make them "ungodly" if you will. The exploiters and the proud of their wealth.
quote:
Nowhere in the Bible does it instruct me to give money to the government to redistribute to who it deems as worthy. It says to help the poor.
I don't deny this, but it's a reasonable jump to say society (through government) should do all they can to help the poor. There's a discussion to be had about how we do that though...
quote:
Secondly, the Bible clearly says if you don't work, you don't eat. As the majority of those in poverty in this country don't work, they're receiving the natural consequences of their choices.
Right, but are they just being shiftless free loaders or have our well intended anti poverty policies created an incentive to not work? As the Pope recently said, work inspires dignity. So yeah, we need our poor to be a)able to find work and b) not make the rational decision to be not working.
My half baked idea on the matter is everyone under a certain amount (the amount isn't important right now) gets a meager check from the government to cover just below the poverty line. So at least those who can't work can at least get food and shelter. Then we completely eliminate the minimum wage and extend the EITC to single people who quality. Sure you may make 2.00 an hour, but that would give you more than you get from your welfare check. Instead of now where you get a job and lose benefits, so working isn't worth it. Like I said, it's not a fully formed idea, but I think there are some pieces with potential.
quote:
I've found that many of my Christian friends who I would consider wealthy (or even just upper middle class) are exceedingly generous with both their time and money in helping others.
I'm not talking about them. Those who are generous with their excesses are at least trying to live the message. It shows compassion. It's lack of compassion that really grinds my gears.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:15 am to The Spleen
quote:
The argument is the rate of income growth for the wealthy has grown at a much faster rate than the rate of growth for the lower and middle class.
That's actually a very solid argument.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:15 am to The Spleen
quote:
It's not about some people making too much, it's about a certain class of people seeing their income growth outpace the other classes at an alarming rate.
I don't even have a problem with some people's earnings growing much faster than everyone else. That's going to happen sometimes in a capitalist system. My problem is I think they are protecting rents to make more and at the cost of everyone else. Someone else hit on this point earlier, it's the power not the money.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:17 am to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:That is a good example. Neither Gates nor Jobs invented much of the technology they sold. In our system the innovators typically get very little
In other words what Bill Gates and other garage inventors have done to change the world is where our system has an advantage over others.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:20 am to MIZ_COU
I was more thinking of the first innovations as opposed to what happened once he had all the momentum.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:20 am to Duke
quote:
I don't even have a problem with some people's earnings growing much faster than everyone else. That's going to happen sometimes in a capitalist system. My problem is I think they are protecting rents to make more and at the cost of everyone else. Someone else hit on this point earlier, it's the power not the money.
I think it's to be expected that the wealthy will always outpace the lower and middle class in income growth. With more money come more avenues to grow wealth. But yeah, the power that comes with that is a huge potential problem.
To that end, the Supreme Court decision on the Hobby Lobby case will be interesting to watch. Not for the Obamacare implications but the implications of potentially treating a corporation as an individual. I think it's a very slippery slope if they rule that way, which it looks like they will.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:21 am to CheeseburgerEddie
quote:
But we are talking about economic innovation. The incentive for individuals to research and create things on their own where the government does not have to contribute their own resources. Out governemnt also supports innovation and does a very good job of it although most innovation is seen and used by the military first.
The internet, Manhattan Project and the Moon Landing (among other things) were state sponsored, privately contracted endeavors.
quote:
In other words what Bill Gates and other garage inventors have done to change the world is where our system has an advantage over others.
Nikola Tesla did these things without any incentive at all -- and moved to our country because of the resources and the focus on development. That FOCUS is what did it, not the economy.
quote:
ETA: To clarify my comments on Hitler, you could say Hitler used his evils and absolute control to achieve innovation above what his system should have allowed. He acquired extra resources through invasion and stirred up the masses with his propoganda and inspired them to innovate for Germany and their "German Pride".
We don't even need to invade for the resources, they're all fairly readily available (at least they were while we developed) and so as I said: Any nation with an abundance of resources, the right approach from the government regarding R&D and a healthy respect for science will develop.
Even if they're Communist, Socialist, Libertarian or Capitalist.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:21 am to CheeseburgerEddie
they didn't do those. Wozniak did apple and gate's bought ms-dos for 50k.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:24 am to MIZ_COU
quote:
That is a good example. Neither Gates nor Jobs invented much of the technology they sold. In our system the innovators typically get very little
This is BS. The fact that Microsoft or Apple or Boeing or any other large multinational rolls up technology under their brand doesn't mean the innovators don't make money.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:24 am to The Spleen
SCOTUS is in bed with our corporate overlords.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:25 am to the808bass
quote:
This is BS. The fact that Microsoft or Apple or Boeing or any other large multinational rolls up technology under their brand doesn't mean the innovators don't make money.
As a Florida fan I think Gatorade should be brought up.......
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:26 am to The Spleen
quote:
To that end, the Supreme Court decision on the Hobby Lobby case will be interesting to watch. Not for the Obamacare implications but the implications of potentially treating a corporation as an individual. I think it's a very slippery slope if they rule that way, which it looks like they will.
They already treat corporations like people in other respects. That won't make it a landmark case at all.
Posted on 4/11/14 at 9:27 am to the808bass
quote:Who makes the most? The guy that wrote ms-dos made 50k. Gate made billions. That's a fact
This is BS. The fact that Microsoft or Apple or Boeing or any other large multinational rolls up technology under their brand doesn't mean the innovators don't make money.
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