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Ben Carson is absolutely right, and for more reasons than he says
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:15 pm
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:15 pm
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Dude is absolutely right. We need to stop teaching people to comply with the gunman's demands and start teaching people to look for the opportune moment to overpower him.
Will some people die? Yes. Will some people die in a situation where by not acting, they may have lived? Invariably.
However, what we lose in those lives we gain in something else. We know that these gunmen, crazy or not, pick targets of least resistance, such as schools, churches, public places where guns are prohibited, etc. Places where people are unarmed and not dangerous.
But what if we taught people to be dangerous despite being unarmed? If that was the de facto instruction for people in gunman situations, wouldn't a would-be killer think twice? And for the one who wants to do his evil deed and end his life without suffering the consequences therafter, wouldn't the threat of being overpowered and taken alive cause even more hesitancy?
Without a doubt, a comprehensive solution to this problem requires evaluating mental health in this country. But I am convinced that even those with mental health issues will be reluctant to open fire on civilians if our attitude becomes "try it, we will take you down" instead of "do whatever you want, just don't kill me"
quote:
Ben Carson refused to back away from his controversial remarks on mass shootings that lit up the gun control debate this week. The GOP presidential candidate argued that everyone should attack a massive shooter and he would sacrifice his life if he were face-to-face with a gunman. He said he'd rather see a body with bullet holes over gun control. "I want to plant in people's minds what to do in a situation like this because unfortunately this is probably not going to be the last time this happens," he said in an interview on "CBS This Morning."
quote:
"I would ask everybody to attack the gunman because he can only shoot one of us at a time. That way, we don't all wind up dead," he told ABC News while chuckling on Tuesday.
Dude is absolutely right. We need to stop teaching people to comply with the gunman's demands and start teaching people to look for the opportune moment to overpower him.
Will some people die? Yes. Will some people die in a situation where by not acting, they may have lived? Invariably.
However, what we lose in those lives we gain in something else. We know that these gunmen, crazy or not, pick targets of least resistance, such as schools, churches, public places where guns are prohibited, etc. Places where people are unarmed and not dangerous.
But what if we taught people to be dangerous despite being unarmed? If that was the de facto instruction for people in gunman situations, wouldn't a would-be killer think twice? And for the one who wants to do his evil deed and end his life without suffering the consequences therafter, wouldn't the threat of being overpowered and taken alive cause even more hesitancy?
Without a doubt, a comprehensive solution to this problem requires evaluating mental health in this country. But I am convinced that even those with mental health issues will be reluctant to open fire on civilians if our attitude becomes "try it, we will take you down" instead of "do whatever you want, just don't kill me"
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Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:25 pm to PrivatePublic
Upvote! I'm voting for him this election, I think he's the best choice for Republicans and America for that matter.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:30 pm to PrivatePublic
National mass media black out of all school shootings. Only covered by local papers for a day or so. Dont give copy catters the attention or the fuel. Within 5 years id be willing to bet these school attacks significantly decrease.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:30 pm to PrivatePublic
Get back to me when you're sitting in a classroom and a guy has a gun pointed at you. By the way, you decide to be the first guy to rush the gunman.
Hypotheticals are great, but reality is reality.
I've been robbed at gunpoint. First, you aren't expecting it to happen. You're walking along minding your own business and the next second you believe you are about to die. It takes a few seconds at least for your body to accept the immediate fight/flight response. When someone pulls a gun on you unexpectedly, you answer "yes sir" and "no sir" and do whatever they tell you to do. That is my personal experience.
Hypotheticals are great, but reality is reality.
I've been robbed at gunpoint. First, you aren't expecting it to happen. You're walking along minding your own business and the next second you believe you are about to die. It takes a few seconds at least for your body to accept the immediate fight/flight response. When someone pulls a gun on you unexpectedly, you answer "yes sir" and "no sir" and do whatever they tell you to do. That is my personal experience.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:38 pm to wmr
Once you see the first person get shot though, I think reality would set in.
As the saying goes,"it's time to do or die"
As the saying goes,"it's time to do or die"
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:41 pm to auggie
Maybe. In the case of the Va Tech shooter, all reports are that he walked in and began shooting. He probably shot at least 10 people within the first 30 seconds. Formulate your plan in 30 seconds, while you are probably pissing yourself and your heart is racing 130 bpm and you expect the next bullet might be in your skull.
I've not been shot at, but I know how having a gun pulled on you by someone you didn't see 5 seconds earlier can "throw you off your game". I can't tell you how many people told me what they "would have done if it had happened" to them. Naturally, none of them had experienced anything similar.
I've not been shot at, but I know how having a gun pulled on you by someone you didn't see 5 seconds earlier can "throw you off your game". I can't tell you how many people told me what they "would have done if it had happened" to them. Naturally, none of them had experienced anything similar.
This post was edited on 10/7/15 at 5:42 pm
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:46 pm to wmr
quote:
I've been robbed at gunpoint.
Being robbed at gunpoint is wholly different than being held at gunpoint by a mass shooter. There are 2 completely different motivations behind them. A mass shooter is going to kill until he is killed or captured. There is no choice but fight or flight-you can't hand him your wallet to pay for your life or the lives of those around you.
Do I know absolutely what I would do in this situation? Nope. But, all my life I've been taught to confront problems, especially when others are in danger, and I like to believe that I'd react like Chris Mintz:
Chris Mintz Defies the Age of the Beta Male
Posted on 10/7/15 at 5:50 pm to DownSouthJukin
I don't think the are exactly alike, but the initial experience is probably similar.
One second, normalcy. Next second, a gun pointed at you by a stranger, with two accomplices.
I didn't even understand the first few words the guy had spoken to me until about 20 minutes after I was robbed. I had to go back and think thru it, because my mind went blank, I froze, and almost pissed my pants. I saw "gunbarrel pointed straight at me", reptile brain thought "you're about to die", body "frozen, pins and needles", conscious mind "blank".
One second, normalcy. Next second, a gun pointed at you by a stranger, with two accomplices.
I didn't even understand the first few words the guy had spoken to me until about 20 minutes after I was robbed. I had to go back and think thru it, because my mind went blank, I froze, and almost pissed my pants. I saw "gunbarrel pointed straight at me", reptile brain thought "you're about to die", body "frozen, pins and needles", conscious mind "blank".
Posted on 10/7/15 at 6:03 pm to wmr
well, I can tell you, I have lost a close family member to a robbery/murder. That changes my outlook. If a gun is pointed at me, I will assume the person intends to use it.
I've had it happen to me as well, I took the sawed off shotgun away from him. He ran into the woods, I called the police they found him a few minutes later, hiding.
I've had it happen to me as well, I took the sawed off shotgun away from him. He ran into the woods, I called the police they found him a few minutes later, hiding.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 6:04 pm to wmr
quote:
I didn't even understand the first few words the guy had spoken to me until about 20 minutes after I was robbed. I had to go back and think thru it, because my mind went blank, I froze, and almost pissed my pants. I saw "gunbarrel pointed straight at me", reptile brain thought "you're about to die", body "frozen, pins and needles", conscious mind "blank".
I've been in similar situations a couple of times, but not with a gun pointed directly at me (that I saw) but was confronted by more than one person each time. I didn't end up getting robbed because I was fortunately able to successfully extract myself from them-one with the bluff of a pistol and the other with a pistol drawn from under my truck seat.
But you're right-the reptilian brain takes over and until after the adrenaline dissipates it's hard to even put together exactly what happened. I was on the telephone with my mom the last time. I put the phone down on my truck hood and she heard everything that they said and that I said. She freaked out worse than I did.
This post was edited on 10/7/15 at 6:06 pm
Posted on 10/7/15 at 6:33 pm to PrivatePublic
quote:You can have both.
He said he'd rather see a body with bullet holes over gun control.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 6:40 pm to PrivatePublic
quote:
I am convinced that even those with mental health issues will be reluctant to open fire on civilians if our attitude becomes "try it, we will take you down" instead of "do whatever you want, just don't kill me"
You think that insane people think through the potential consequences of their actions?
Posted on 10/7/15 at 6:54 pm to DownSouthJukin
The problem is deeper than gun control, and Carson knows it. I think he was trying to give an acceptable answer here. As a society we are off the rails. It isn't one thing, but a mess that has been brewing since the 50s.
Sorry to rant about being robbed. It happened before I was even legal drinking age, so I am not sure exactly how I would respond now. The point I was trying to make is that it is a terrifying experience, every bit as terrifying as any other moment of your life where you were certain you were a few seconds from death. Until you're there, you have no idea how you will react. You don't get to plan ahead.
The main point to me is that suggesting there was something the victims could have done "better" to avoid being murdered while defenseless, it strikes me as borderline disrespectful to them.
Sorry to rant about being robbed. It happened before I was even legal drinking age, so I am not sure exactly how I would respond now. The point I was trying to make is that it is a terrifying experience, every bit as terrifying as any other moment of your life where you were certain you were a few seconds from death. Until you're there, you have no idea how you will react. You don't get to plan ahead.
The main point to me is that suggesting there was something the victims could have done "better" to avoid being murdered while defenseless, it strikes me as borderline disrespectful to them.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 7:05 pm to PrivatePublic
I agree, but expect you will get a ton of down votes. Society has been trained to comply to those who would do you harm and beg for your own life, rather than stand up for it.
As far as asking (others in the thread) if deranged shooters would think things through enough to change plans to avoid being stopped, caught or killed..
He had actually thought about Denver Int'l Airport but was afraid security would prevent him from carrying out his plan to kill a lot of people.
These people committing these crimes are deranged... but they are also capable of assessing the threat to themselves as well and what they want to accomplish.
As far as asking (others in the thread) if deranged shooters would think things through enough to change plans to avoid being stopped, caught or killed..
quote:
Aurora shooter - out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned
He had actually thought about Denver Int'l Airport but was afraid security would prevent him from carrying out his plan to kill a lot of people.
These people committing these crimes are deranged... but they are also capable of assessing the threat to themselves as well and what they want to accomplish.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 7:24 pm to wmr
quote:
The point I was trying to make is that it is a terrifying experience, every bit as terrifying as any other moment of your life where you were certain you were a few seconds from death. Until you're there, you have no idea how you will react. You don't get to plan ahead. The main point to me is that suggesting there was something the victims could have done "better" to avoid being murdered while defenseless, it strikes me as borderline disrespectful to them.
1. Glad you made it through the ordeal unscathed.
2. I think that's a little bit different from what Carson and the OP are talking about. In a mass shooting incident, the only purpose of the individual is to kill. Not looking for profit and not having a death wish of his own.
Best thing, imo, you can do with a robbery is first and foremost.. be aware of your surroundings. If you carry a firearm, be proficient with it and train regularly with it. You react how you train. Meaning, if you never train, you will have no idea how you will react in an emergency situation. If you do train, you will resort to your muscle memory when a situation occurs most times.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 7:57 pm to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
You think that insane people think through the potential consequences of their actions?
Absolutely. After all, someone who is insane manages to function somewhat before they are declared insane and put away.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 8:00 pm to wmr
quote:
Until you're there, you have no idea how you will react. You don't get to plan ahead.
The main point to me is that suggesting there was something the victims could have done "better" to avoid being murdered while defenseless, it strikes me as borderline disrespectful to them.
I see your point-there's no arm chair quarterbacking shite like that. Until you're in the shite, you just don't know. God bless the souls who have to go through it.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 8:17 pm to jcolding41
quote:
I think he's the best choice for Republicans and America for that matter.
I agree.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 8:47 pm to PrivatePublic
He strikes me as a the first person that would wet his pants and start crying for his mommy were he in that situation.
To be fair, I would be the second one.
To be fair, I would be the second one.
Posted on 10/7/15 at 9:24 pm to wmr
quote:
In the case of the Va Tech shooter, all reports are that he walked in and began shooting.
The biggest number of his victims, 19 I think, occurred in one classroom where he forced the students to line up against a wall and began to shoot them in the head, one after another. Only one student overcame his fear paralysis and smashed through a window and fell to the ground from the second floor. At least he lived.
I don't understand why anyone would criticize what Carson said. The VT crazy was not going to negotiate with anyone, wasn't interested in raping anyone and wasn't robbing anyone. His single motive was to kill as many as possible.
I don't know if mass paralysis such as this can be overcome, but I certainly do think that if a couple or three of those students had been armed, they would have reacted differently.
Just knowing that he was in a room that had students who were potentially armed might have caused the madman to take a different strategy, such as shooting from a distance outside the classrooms. After all, to a man, these crazies are cowards who don't want and don't expect any opposition.
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