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re: Abortion
Posted on 10/22/14 at 10:58 pm to genro
Posted on 10/22/14 at 10:58 pm to genro
quote:
Our education and contraceptive ability is exactly what makes abortion an obsolete medieval practice.
Hence why I've barely said anything about abortion. I took issue with the solution being not to have sex. The "solution" is to ensure birth control is as accessable and inexpensive as possible and continue the positive trends in education.
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Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:00 pm to the808bass
quote:
I just am jaundiced by the reality that if a girl can't act responsibly with the act of sex, she's not going to act responsibly in taking the pill. A guy who can't act responsibly with sex won't act responsibly with a condom.
And it's the numbers of people who are being irresponsible that is making this a global tragedy in the making. Already, 1.5 billion people don't have access to clean drinking water and 2 billion are under-nourished or mal-nourished.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:00 pm to semotruman
quote:
As a Christian, I find the dynamic of the social conservative fascinating. Let's force someone to bring a life into the world that they do not want. And they will "help" that person change their mind, feed and clothe them while they are pregnant, give them medical care, etc. Then, once the baby is born, they are all for reducing the social programs that care for these children. They aren't really "pro-life", just pro-birth.
If abortion is inherently immoral, then nothing else really matters. The ramifications of stopping it cannot be used as support for it if one says it is wrong.
Now, I do not believe that anything is inherently immoral as societies define morality. However, huge portions of our population believe it is and thus this argument can immediately br thrown out.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:01 pm to the808bass
quote:
And a system where the kids can push a "reset button" (at least that's what they think) with an abortion encourages the earlier options to be taken even less seriously. There's always a backstop.
Kids aren't thinking about the consequences period. The backstop just makes it more convenient to clean up the mess.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:01 pm to semotruman
quote:
Our foster system doesn't work, and adoptions are astronomical in the US
These systems need to be overhauled ASAP, IMO.
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Let's force someone to bring a life into the world that they do not want.
A lack of want is not justification for termination, imho.
quote:
they will "help" that person change their mind, feed and clothe them while they are pregnant, give them medical care, etc. Then, once the baby is born, they are all for reducing the social programs that care for these children.
That is a very specific person. I don't think many pro-lifers are against overhauling adoption/foster care systems.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:01 pm to Duke
quote:
Hence why I've barely said anything about abortion. I took issue with the solution being not to have sex. The "solution" is to ensure birth control is as accessable and inexpensive as possible and continue the positive trends in education.
Less people = better society.
Simple fact. The best way to stave abortion is to ensure people can protect themselves. Surely no one thinks unwanted babies are a better response than never conceiving?
Not directly toward you, Duke, just the anti-abortion crowd.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:01 pm to Duke
quote:
The "solution" is to ensure birth control is as accessable and inexpensive as possible and continue the positive trends in education.
Have an upvote.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:02 pm to Kentucker
quote:
Kentucker
Thank you. And let me say - I completely agree with all the calls for responsibility. People should be more responsible about sex. I just see the issue as much bigger than "should abortion be legal?" That's dumbing down the issue so that the masses can understand it, take a side on it, and remain thoroughly distracted by politicians from the larger, complicated issues facing us.
This post was edited on 10/22/14 at 11:06 pm
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:03 pm to Duke
I've done things where I made the calculation - if this goes FUBAR, what's my out? We've all done it. Even for base drive decisions. I can guarantee the abortion option affects kids negatively in the responsibility arena.
This post was edited on 10/22/14 at 11:04 pm
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:04 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
unwanted babies
This is where I take issue. YOU may not want that baby, but others most assuredly would.
And where is this line drawn. Why is it ok, say for one's fortunes to go down the shitter financially to the point where a child is no longer wanted and kill the baby because it's en utero, when if the same were to occur immediately after birth, it'd be heinous? I think that's disingenuous.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:05 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
quote: The "solution" is to ensure birth control is as accessable and inexpensive as possible and continue the positive trends in education.
Bingo.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:09 pm to Roger Klarvin
As I've said, all pro-choice arguments eventually sound Swiftian. Look at all of society's problems! frick education, contraception, responsibility, adoption, and foster reform. The only solution is to kill the babies!
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:11 pm to the808bass
quote:
I can guarantee the abortion option affects kids negatively in the responsibility arena.
I can guarantee is makes little pratical difference. Before abortion was relatively easy to get to, did kids not have sex because they would be forced to raise a kid?
Nah. We just had orphanages.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:12 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
This is where I take issue. YOU may not want that baby, but others most assuredly would.
I'm not sure I follow this point -- I was speaking on the merit of ensuring birth control and education is easily accessible -- clearly having access to these two are better outcomes than the alternative (abortion).
I was asking: Why are those so constrictive regarding those two methods?
quote:
And where is this line drawn. Why is it ok, say for one's fortunes to go down the shitter financially to the point where a child is no longer wanted and kill the baby because it's en utero, when if the same were to occur immediately after birth, it'd be heinous? I think that's disingenuous.
The same reason you would probably choose your 14 week old to die rather than your five year old. Or even newborn.
If you had two "children", one being a fetus and the other being a newborn I don't think the quantification of life is too difficult to ascertain.
It sounds cruel and heartless, but it's a matter of reality that we have to address.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:13 pm to Duke
quote:
I can guarantee is makes little pratical difference. Before abortion was relatively easy to get to, did kids not have sex because they would be forced to raise a kid?
Nah. We just had orphanages.
Yup, which brings us all the way back 'round to, oh, hey! Making foster care better and adoption more feasible/affordable.
Adoption>>>>>abortion, and it ain't close
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:16 pm to genro
quote:
As I've said, all pro-choice arguments eventually sound Swiftian. Look at all of society's problems! frick education, contraception, responsibility, adoption, and foster reform. The only solution is to kill the babies!
The riposte is to say that every pro-life argument arises out of an appeal to emotion fallacy.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:16 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
And where is this line drawn. Why is it ok, say for one's fortunes to go down the shitter financially to the point where a child is no longer wanted and kill the baby because it's en utero, when if the same were to occur immediately after birth, it'd be heinous? I think that's disingenuous.
One of KS's original groupings is "Life begins." I think that's deceptive because, as I mentioned, life does not begin. It can't. It began billions of years ago and has continued to the points of you, me and everything else that is alive today.
A better title for the group would be "Consciousness begins." It is, after all, consciousness that is the distinct characteristic of being human.
That being said, "consciousness" doesn't develop until a child is near 5 years old, on average. So, if we define being human as being conscious, or having consciousness, then halting a pregnancy would seem far more cathartic than some would argue.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:16 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
TbirdSpur2010
I'm experiencing déjà vu. We have had this discussion before, and came to the same points of agreement.
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:17 pm to StrawsDrawnAtRandom
quote:
I was speaking on the merit of ensuring birth control and education is easily accessible -- clearly having access to these two are better outcomes than the alternative (abortion).
Ah, then we agree. Thought you were talmbout the "merit" of abortion. I misread, forgive me
quote:
The same reason you would probably choose your 14 week old to die rather than your five year old. Or even newborn.
Now I'm not sure I'm following. I wouldn't choose either one, even if pressed. I really don't make a distinction regarding the quantification of life.
quote:
It sounds cruel and heartless, but it's a matter of reality that we have to address.
Disregard, I get what you're saying now
Knew this thread would gain some traction. Always does
Posted on 10/22/14 at 11:17 pm to KSGamecock
quote:
1. Abortion....
quote:
B. Should be legal up until or around the 20th week (no late term abortions)
C. Should only be legal in case of rape or if birth could endanger the mother
quote:
2. Life begins...
impossible to know
quote:
3. People who disagree with my opinion on abortion are...
A. Fine, we just see things differently
This post was edited on 10/22/14 at 11:20 pm
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