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How to Solve QB Depth Issues?
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:20 am
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:20 am
First up, this is not a negative post- yall know that is not my thing really. It is more an observation of a phenomenon I find fascinating: we can't have QB depth!! I mean, we went from a Ryan Tannehill waiting his turn at the WR position for years, to having like 4 QBs transfer or likely transfer during Sumlin's time.
I know this is not an issue exclusive to us, Texas/Tech had the same problems the last couple of years. Seems like a change at the position in mentality- if you are a 4/5 star QB and you don't get a shot at the job within a season or two you are gone. Or not even 4/5 stars, that Tech walkon thought he was too good to play the game. It is an epidemic in the state.
But what do we do about it? I mean, having just two QBs at most on the roster every season is a scary thing.
The two solutions I can think of are:
1. Recruit a few lower-ranked QBs every other cycle, someone just happy to be on a SEC or A&M roster, for depth.
2. Pull a Ryan and let non-QBs take a few practice snaps. Let guys like RSJ or Speedy who have some QB experience be the depth, as they won't leave as they are getting guaranteed playing time at another position.
Personally, as someone who is very clueless about all of this, option 2 sounds better. Option 1 seems like we are wasting precious roster spots on players who might not make the impact of that four star safety or whatever we can't take instead. Also I would love to see the reaction of LSU fans if Speedy took a few reps in practice.
But is that the answer? Is there an option 3 I missed? Is there some long-term solution, like maybe looking elsewhere for QBs?
I would love to hear yalls thoughts.
I know this is not an issue exclusive to us, Texas/Tech had the same problems the last couple of years. Seems like a change at the position in mentality- if you are a 4/5 star QB and you don't get a shot at the job within a season or two you are gone. Or not even 4/5 stars, that Tech walkon thought he was too good to play the game. It is an epidemic in the state.
But what do we do about it? I mean, having just two QBs at most on the roster every season is a scary thing.
The two solutions I can think of are:
1. Recruit a few lower-ranked QBs every other cycle, someone just happy to be on a SEC or A&M roster, for depth.
2. Pull a Ryan and let non-QBs take a few practice snaps. Let guys like RSJ or Speedy who have some QB experience be the depth, as they won't leave as they are getting guaranteed playing time at another position.
Personally, as someone who is very clueless about all of this, option 2 sounds better. Option 1 seems like we are wasting precious roster spots on players who might not make the impact of that four star safety or whatever we can't take instead. Also I would love to see the reaction of LSU fans if Speedy took a few reps in practice.
But is that the answer? Is there an option 3 I missed? Is there some long-term solution, like maybe looking elsewhere for QBs?
I would love to hear yalls thoughts.
3
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:28 am to cardboardboxer
You think we have QB depth issues?
When did we only have 2 QBs on the roster? Are you only counting guys with scholarships b/c then it would only be this year and the only reason for that was b/c Joeckel knew he had zero chance of beating out Kenny Hill and Kyle Allen.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:30 am to cardboardboxer
The answer? Only recruit pretty good QBs and not the elite of elite.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:33 am to cardboardboxer
Capers-Smith has been playing some pretty decent QB this year?
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:47 am to Dr RC
quote:
You think we have QB depth issues?
Well, yeah. I mean optimally we would have like 4 scholarship QBS on the roster. Maybe? I don't know, but that is conventional logic.
I didn't think about the walkon thing. Maybe that is option 3: depth past two deep is always walk-on. That avoids wasting a ship on a mediocre QB, but it seems like it would be hard to get even a two star without a ship. Is a walk-on really better than a half-QB?
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 10:54 am
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:53 am to Farmer1906
quote:
The answer? Only recruit pretty good QBs and not the elite of elite.
My only issue with that is that it seems like Sumlin's system pretty much requires elite QB play to be effective. So if your backup is so-so then he might as well be a converted WR because you are going to lose like five games that season anyway. I mean, and I could be COMPLETELY off, but it seems like Hill (who 95%+ of coaches would love to have) was great but not amazing and Sumlin needs amazing to be really successful.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:00 am to cardboardboxer
quote:
My only issue with that is that it seems like Sumlin's system pretty much requires elite QB play to be effective. So
I don't believe that at all. Being elite is not necessary. Being able to get the ball out quickly and willing to take shots down field is what is required. I've seen too many successful spread QBs who would have been extremely average in other systems to believe otherwise.
We all knew this year was going to be a rebuilding year. Sumlin did too. I think that's why he didn't try too hard to keep Joeckel around. Had the defense actually had the needed depth I think he would have had a legit chance to start with Allen possibly getting a red shirt. Since it didn't Sumlin decided it would be best to go with one of the younger kids to build towards the future.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 11:06 am
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:11 am to cardboardboxer
quote:
My only issue with that is that it seems like Sumlin's system pretty much requires elite QB play to be effective. So if your backup is so-so then he might as well be a converted WR because you are going to lose like five games that season anyway. I mean, and I could be COMPLETELY off, but it seems like Hill (who 95%+ of coaches would love to have) was great but not amazing and Sumlin needs amazing to be really successful.
Its a solution, but not a good one. I wasn't expecting you to take it seriously. Depth at QB is fine when you have Heisman level guys playing the position.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:14 am to Dr RC
agreed. Tech in their heyday and Baylor today have consistently taken lower tier QBs that sat the bench and learned the system inside and out. It doesn't require elite. It requires accuracy, a quick-release, intelligence, and experience. Elite is a bonus.
We have 2 very talented QBs that have the first 3 qualities in spades. What they don't have is experience. Patience daniel san.
We have 2 very talented QBs that have the first 3 qualities in spades. What they don't have is experience. Patience daniel san.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:28 am to Dr RC
quote:
I don't believe that at all. Being elite is not necessary. Being able to get the ball out quickly and willing to take shots down field is what is required. I've seen too many successful spread QBs who would have been extremely average in other systems to believe otherwise.
That is the thing: I don't think Sumlin's system is a typical spread when it comes to that.
Something like an Urban Meyer system seems more what you are talking about (add in a legit run game). For Sumlin is seems like he needs a QB that can make every throw on the field and exploit any weakness the defense gives him. Or be an all-time great scambler.
I mean, what else explains what happened to Kenny? To me it is clear as day that even as early as USC EVERYONE noticed there were throws he couldn't make (I remember us talking about that early), and once we got to a Bama the defense coordinators were taking advantage of that weakness by giving him an opening that would require that throw and nothing else. Kenny goes from our best QB performance ever to out of the job for good within a season, like a Mega Man boss when you have the ability he is weak against.
After that situation, and looking at the success of Case Keenum (another guy who could make every throw), it just seems like anything short of elite completely undoes the "hit them where they are weakest" strategy. We don't have the line play or the RB play to do what a Bama or LSU does, aka "here is what we do best, try and stop us."
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:41 am to cardboardboxer
quote:
I mean, what else explains what happened to Kenny?
wow, talk about reactionary. Kenny is a first year starter and a true sophomore. It's incredibly rare for a QB to not have struggles in such situations.
It's not about the system. That's just how it works. Young QBs get flustered. They don't go thru their progressions. They make bad decisions. The fact that he didn't vs SC was amazing. But assuming he never would?
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:25 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
I mean, what else explains what happened to Kenny? To me it is clear as day that even as early as USC EVERYONE noticed there were throws he couldn't make (I remember us talking about that early), and once we got to a Bama the defense coordinators were taking advantage of that weakness by giving him an opening that would require that throw and nothing else. Kenny goes from our best QB performance ever to out of the job for good within a season, like a Mega Man boss when you have the ability he is weak against.
What happened to Kenny? Well, he got gun shy on throwing deep balls and over the middle due to accuracy issues, waited to throw to WRs that were wide open instead of throwing to where they were supposed to be which led to line breakdowns and throws behind the WRs, threw too many flutter balls, seemed to be scared to run when it was there, and most importantly he lost the team by partying too damn hard during the season.
It was a basic garden variety young QB mental collapse. Nothing more, nothing less.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 12:27 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:30 pm to tmc94
Oh I agree tmc, USC set our expectations in unrealistic ways. Honestly I was kinda miffed when he got benched until I heard the suspended thing. I felt it was unfair that we expected so much.
With that said, he did get benched for a reason. My understanding is that he got benched before the suspension, so that means the coaches did see something in the short time as a starter that contradicted their feelings before the season (or Kyle was just being a rockstar in practices).
This really isn't a critical meltdown type thing, as we already have another starter who looks pretty great if I may say so. Things happen, these kids are all young, nothing is perfect. And I am not saying the offensive system is "at fault" for anything. The fault this year and last lies at the feet of a defense that is playing below their talent level.
Just more an observation that the QB position is changing, and a system like ours requires a more complete talent set than a team like Bama or LSU.
With that said, he did get benched for a reason. My understanding is that he got benched before the suspension, so that means the coaches did see something in the short time as a starter that contradicted their feelings before the season (or Kyle was just being a rockstar in practices).
This really isn't a critical meltdown type thing, as we already have another starter who looks pretty great if I may say so. Things happen, these kids are all young, nothing is perfect. And I am not saying the offensive system is "at fault" for anything. The fault this year and last lies at the feet of a defense that is playing below their talent level.
Just more an observation that the QB position is changing, and a system like ours requires a more complete talent set than a team like Bama or LSU.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:35 pm to Dr RC
quote:
What happened to Kenny? Well, he got gun shy on throwing deep balls and over the middle due to accuracy issues, waited to throw to WRs that were wide open instead of throwing to where they were supposed to be which led to line breakdowns and throws behind the WRs, threw too many flutter balls, seemed to be scared to run when it was there, and most importantly he lost the team by partying too damn hard during the season.
It was a basic garden variety young QB mental collapse. Nothing more, nothing less.
Agreed on all but the last point.
I mean, is a "young QB mental collapse" like that really a common thing? I am really asking, as I am trying to remember another QB that emulated Icarus so perfectly.
Seems like many college coaches would go out of their way to shield a young QB, and not expect too much out of them, to prevent such a thing from happening. To me it seems like our QB position is tougher than most, a hotter fire in which to be forged (which requires more raw materials than most do).
But, like usual, I can be completely wrong and I invite you to tell me if I am.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:41 pm to cardboardboxer
quote:
I mean, is a "young QB mental collapse" like that really a common thing? I am really asking, as I am trying to remember another QB that emulated Icarus so perfectly.
I've seen it quite a bit actually. Guys come out on fire, then people get tape on them and force them to do some things they aren't as comfortable with and they can't handle it and shrivel up.
John O'Korn over at Houston is a good example of that.
quote:
Seems like many college coaches would go out of their way to shield a young QB, and not expect too much out of them, to prevent such a thing from happening. To me it seems like our QB position is tougher than most, a hotter fire in which to be forged (which requires more raw materials than most do).
There really is only so much they can do. Once a guy starts refusing to make throws for fear of tossing a pick you aren't left much choice. Teams started sitting on the short routes with Kenny b/c they knew he was not so hot going deep and instead of taking shots to keep them honest he started getting tunnel vision w/the short safe throws.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:49 pm to Dr RC
Awesome post, thank you for the example Dr. RC.
That is why I love this forum!
That is why I love this forum!
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:53 pm to cardboardboxer
Also, to be fair to your OP, I don't prefer to only have 3 true QBs and just 2 with scholarship. I just don't see it as an issue for this particular year as it was always going to be a step back before the leap forward due to the defensive losses be it from graduation or stupidity of kids that got the boot.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 12:57 pm
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