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re: What do people get out of going to church on Easter once a year?
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:28 pm to Roger Klarvin
quote:Yes, God receives glory for everything that happens. That's why the Westminster shorter and larger catechisms start by describing the "chief end of man" (what we were created for) as giving glory to God. We were created for that reason. All things, good and bad, happen for God's glory.
The bible actually says God is glorified by those who are burning in hell and is an active participant in their punishment.
quote:I agree that many Christians and non-Christians (who think they know what the Bible teaches) have the wrong view of God. Usually what it boils down to, though, is that we have too high a view of ourselves (humanity) or too low of a view of God.
Most christians either have this false idea of what the bible says about God, or for some reason Ill never understand actually enjoy worshipping the God that the bible actually describes.
If you understand why Christians (who know the truth about God) still enjoy worshiping Him, you would probably be a believer, yourself. It takes a conversion by God, though, so it's not something someone can explain to you or anyone else and then have you believe it.
quote:A sadist is someone who actually enjoys the torments of others. God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked (Eze 33:11). Getting glory and getting amusement aren't the same thing.
You can say all you want about mercy and love and Heaven, but any God who willfully uses the eternal torment of his creation to glorify himself (again, the bible says this not me) is a sadist. Period. He creates people knowing they will go to hell and then actively uses tat punishment to reveal his power and glory. That is the worst kind of evil imaginable, and the bible describes it in vivid detail.
The problem you and others who share that view have is that you assume humans are good and deserve good things and deserve Heaven (if there is such a thing), but that's not the case. If you compare one human to another, you might think one is better than the other or more deserving than the other, but the issue isn't how we compare to each other, but how we compare to a perfect and holy God. God, being perfect and holy, cannot exist with us sinners in Heaven without cleansing us of our sin.
Instead of saying that it is unfair (or that God is unjust) that God condemns people to Hell, perhaps we should start viewing it as God is unfair to allow some to go to Heaven. We all deserve Hell. No one deserves Heaven (based on God's standard). Humans are totally depraved.
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Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:41 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The problem you and others who share that view have is that you assume humans are good and deserve good things and deserve Heaven (if there is such a thing), but that's not the case.
No, I dont. I dont believe most people "deserve" Heaven. We do nasty things to each other on the regular. All I said was that nobody deserves eternal hell. Those are wildly different statements.
quote:
If you compare one human to another, you might think one is better than the other or more deserving than the other, but the issue isn't how we compare to each other, but how we compare to a perfect and holy God. God, being perfect and holy, cannot exist with us sinners in Heaven without cleansing us of our sin.
I used to go through life viewing the world like this, and Im happy to say life is so much better when you do away with this idea. Christianity forces me to say that good nonbelievers are just as evil as evil as the worst mass murderers in history.
And God is omnipotent, he can do anything he wants including going against his very nature. Anyone who is in hell is in hell because he wants it to be so, not because his hands are tied. Omniscience and infinite power removes this tie on him.
Christianity desperately wants god to be all powerful, but then when the implications of that power are pointed out you want to place limitations on what he is capable of. You cant have it both ways. Either god is infinitely powerful and can forgive anyone just but choosing to do so, or he isnt infinitely powerful.
This is something that the ancient greek and roman philosophers realized and its why their gods did not possess omniscience. Many of them wrote about the terror that omniscience presented and why even the gods couldnt possess such a power. They realized, unlike ignorant and illiterate hebrews in the middle east, the implications of omniscience.
Posted on 4/21/14 at 12:47 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Instead of saying that it is unfair (or that God is unjust) that God condemns people to Hell, perhaps we should start viewing it as God is unfair to allow some to go to Heaven. We all deserve Hell. No one deserves Heaven (based on God's standard). Humans are totally depraved.
You keep saying this and yet offer no argument for it.
If humans are totally depraved, its because God allowed it to be so. He is the all powerful creator who sees both the beginning and the end of time simultaneously. He knew how awful this creation plan of his would end and still did it.
If God is all powerful, completely omniscient and free from any other superior being forcing his hand and people still end up in hell it is his fault. This is a philosophical idea older than christianity itself and one in which only christian philosophers try to get around,
Omniscience and free will cannot coexist. If free will doesnt exist, God is at fault for whatever happens to us. This is philosophy 101. Aristotle rolls in his grave every time a christian apologist argues against this.
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