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re: Is Kentucky southern?
Posted on 1/28/24 at 2:00 am to deputyfife
Posted on 1/28/24 at 2:00 am to deputyfife
So a state that is
1. On the confederate flag
2. Had 35k-55k Confederate soldiers
3. 38 confederate generals
4. Had a confederate government that was represented by delegates from 68 of 111 counties (a 68 43 majority)
5. In the sub tropical humid climate zone
6. Is known for having southern culture
7. Is predomintaly Scot-irish and English in ancestry (except the 3 counties near ohio)
8.Had confederate represenatives in conferderate congress
9.Was settled by Virginians and North Carolinians
10. Had the 3rd most slaves in 1860
11. Voted for Lincoln at a 1000 votes per 1.1M people rate
Isn't southern?
LOL at a Missourian questioning any states ''southern'' label. The only reason you people even have any claim to Southern identity is because of Kentuckians and Tenneeseeans who moved to the little dixie area of Missouri.
As to why Kentucky never ''officially seceded''
1.Kentuckians supported unionism because they felt the best way to keep their slaves was to stick with the Union. Rather than risk it with a confederacy.
2. Kentucky never held a popular vote to secede because the state leg. was made up of transplanted midwesterners and old school whigs
3. Kentucky had economic ties to Northern cities so it coulnd't afford a war
4.Kentucky's slaves could easily flee across the ohio river if they seceded
5. Kentucky would have easily have been overrun by Union Soldiers had they seceded being right on the border of the North. Louisville and other towns would be decimated.
If you read Kentucky's neutrality document in the state archives it says Kentucky will go with the rest of the south if the North doesn't allow them to be Neutral.
Kentucky's union support was gone by 1864. The union considered Kentucky a ''rebel'' state and martial law was imposed. Kentuckians were shot in the the streets if Confederate sympathy was suspected. This combined with black soldiers joining the union army and the emancipation promlicaton led to many Kentucky union soldiers to denounce their Union support. Some joined confederate units and deserted their Union units. Many post-war Union soldiers running for Kentucky politics opnely denounced their Union enlistment as a mistake.
As for the enlistment numbers it was around 45k-55k Confederate and 66k-77k Union. Not that big of a split. 71 % of Kentucky men didn't join either side. Probably because they wanted to join the Confederate army but couldn't due to Union occupation. The 125,000 number you hear is from black soldiers being counted.
When the union tried to draft Kentuckians in 1864 they called for 16000 troops. To which only 1500 responded.
As to culture?
EKY is southern mountain culture.
Southern and Western KY is southern.
Central Kentucky is all southern with a tigne of midwestern influence mostly from Lexington transplants.
Northern KY (the 3 counties near cincy) is midwestern and German in heritage.
Louisville is a mix.
So to sit here and say Kentucky isn't southern is a complete lie. Some of y'all need a history lesson badly.
1. On the confederate flag
2. Had 35k-55k Confederate soldiers
3. 38 confederate generals
4. Had a confederate government that was represented by delegates from 68 of 111 counties (a 68 43 majority)
5. In the sub tropical humid climate zone
6. Is known for having southern culture
7. Is predomintaly Scot-irish and English in ancestry (except the 3 counties near ohio)
8.Had confederate represenatives in conferderate congress
9.Was settled by Virginians and North Carolinians
10. Had the 3rd most slaves in 1860
11. Voted for Lincoln at a 1000 votes per 1.1M people rate
Isn't southern?
LOL at a Missourian questioning any states ''southern'' label. The only reason you people even have any claim to Southern identity is because of Kentuckians and Tenneeseeans who moved to the little dixie area of Missouri.
As to why Kentucky never ''officially seceded''
1.Kentuckians supported unionism because they felt the best way to keep their slaves was to stick with the Union. Rather than risk it with a confederacy.
2. Kentucky never held a popular vote to secede because the state leg. was made up of transplanted midwesterners and old school whigs
3. Kentucky had economic ties to Northern cities so it coulnd't afford a war
4.Kentucky's slaves could easily flee across the ohio river if they seceded
5. Kentucky would have easily have been overrun by Union Soldiers had they seceded being right on the border of the North. Louisville and other towns would be decimated.
If you read Kentucky's neutrality document in the state archives it says Kentucky will go with the rest of the south if the North doesn't allow them to be Neutral.
Kentucky's union support was gone by 1864. The union considered Kentucky a ''rebel'' state and martial law was imposed. Kentuckians were shot in the the streets if Confederate sympathy was suspected. This combined with black soldiers joining the union army and the emancipation promlicaton led to many Kentucky union soldiers to denounce their Union support. Some joined confederate units and deserted their Union units. Many post-war Union soldiers running for Kentucky politics opnely denounced their Union enlistment as a mistake.
As for the enlistment numbers it was around 45k-55k Confederate and 66k-77k Union. Not that big of a split. 71 % of Kentucky men didn't join either side. Probably because they wanted to join the Confederate army but couldn't due to Union occupation. The 125,000 number you hear is from black soldiers being counted.
When the union tried to draft Kentuckians in 1864 they called for 16000 troops. To which only 1500 responded.
As to culture?
EKY is southern mountain culture.
Southern and Western KY is southern.
Central Kentucky is all southern with a tigne of midwestern influence mostly from Lexington transplants.
Northern KY (the 3 counties near cincy) is midwestern and German in heritage.
Louisville is a mix.
So to sit here and say Kentucky isn't southern is a complete lie. Some of y'all need a history lesson badly.
This post was edited on 1/28/24 at 2:04 am
5
Posted on 1/28/24 at 9:27 am to cwil1
quote:
Kentuckians and Tenneeseeans who moved to the little dixie area of Missouri.
I have been on Jessie James family farm in Central Kentucky
quote:
1.Kentuckians supported unionism because they felt the best way to keep their slaves was to stick with the Union. Rather than risk it with a confederacy.
Not sure where you get this from at all?
Lexington, Kentucky was about 1/2 black in its early history (similar to most southern states) and had the #2 slave market in the USA next to the old courthouse (still standing) on Main Street and Cheapside.
The misnomer of slaves is that everybody in the South had them which is clearly a great distortion of the truth. Say Lexington, KY had a population of 40K and half were black and half were white the numbers are skewed by ownership. Like today where the 1% of the 1% of the 1% controls the USA, similar numbers had the VAST majority of the slaves (say 20 people owned 19,000 slaves). Think of the industries (slave markets excluded) and what was the real demand for slaves?
Bourbon is a skill industry (not slave worthy)
Horses is a mixed industry (slaves for farm work, free men for grooms and jockeys)
NOTE : One of the richer black men in the South lived halfway between downtown Lexington and the early UK and was a merchant - rumored to have made massive wealth in slave trading. The jockey industry was exclusively black and they were Michael Jordan rich for athletes of their era
Hemp is probably a slave industry but coal and oil kill "The Age of Sail"
Coal is new and not yet slave (that will come later with white slavery "company towns")
Arms manufacturing (skill job, not slave job) - think DuPont not Colt
Tobacco had limited slave use as you only need the labor 1 - 2 months out of 12 and not economically as viable when you have to house slaves, feed them, and put clothes on them 12 months out of the year. It snows in KY so you need fuel in the winter when they do no labor.
Sugar Cane and Cotton are much more prone to slave labor based on climate and use of labor over all 12 months of the year. Idle people (free or slave) cost money when not working.
Posted on 1/28/24 at 9:53 am to cwil1
quote:
2. Kentucky never held a popular vote to secede because the state leg. was made up of transplanted midwesterners and old school whigs
Not sure where you get this?
Early America was 2 parties
Federalist = landed gentry, lawyers, bankers (modern day 1% folks)
Democratic - Republican = farmers, merchants, workers, craftsmen, etc
Henry Clay started as a Democratic - Republican as his father was well respected but poor. When he died, his mother married $$$$, and he began to switch sides. Henry Clay's wife (native KY with VERY rich daddy) was $$$$ and their marriage cemented Henry Clays transition from Democratic - Republican to Whig (what the Federalist morphed into). Very similar to the Turtle today, started poor but was seduced by the power and $$$$ of the Dark Side. While folks argue constantly about modern politics, the Republicans are the "new" Federalists and the Democrats are the "new" Democratic - Republicans.
Old Kentucky was folks from the East who migrated West as land opened up. The names of early KY were the descendants of MD, VA, TN, SC, and such. Biggest source of transplants was Virginia.
Posted on 1/28/24 at 11:52 am to cwil1
quote:
3. Kentucky had economic ties to Northern cities so it coulnd't afford a war
Source?
I am most positive that the GLOBAL hemp trade was based in Central Kentucky (Age of Sail) and the main reason Lexington KY is the largest city in the US (and possibly the world) not on a major waterway. Hemp is a resource and the oldest mens club west of the mountains is in Lexington KY and full of English and French names. They much preferred trade with Europe as the finished goods there were superior to goods from thew North in the USA.
After the War of Northern Agression the citizens of Kentucky were subjuect to the "dispossession" laws that brought financial ruin to the South. As stated above, most of the timber and coal (land) went to a handful of families in NY and PA as the citizens of the state were dispossessed. So argue Abe was killed to make sure this happened as being from the state he was sympathetic to not dispossessing those in the state with net assets over 10K (land + $$$$ + chattel + animals + slaves + personal goods) - view it as a modern day "net worth" statenment.
To be fair, KY was asset rich in the materials of war so BOTH sides wanted access to these goods.
Posted on 1/28/24 at 12:00 pm to cwil1
quote:
4.Kentucky's slaves could easily flee across the ohio river if they seceded
Source?
Lexington Kentucky was the #2 slave market in the USA. This is noteworthy as they were not a source (port) slave market and their entire inventory was secondary. Think of the car market.
Ford + GM + Chrysler = primary slaves (new) from Africa
Used car dealer = secondary slaves (used) from capture and trade
While Central Kentucky (and other agricultural parts of the state) were 50% black, most are down to just 5% to 15% today as the loss of agricultural dominance and loss of slave markets dropped the population greatly. In the last century sharecroppers and free blacks alike crossed the Ohio Ocean for industrial jobs in the auto industry and similar modern industries.
Posted on 1/28/24 at 12:11 pm to cwil1
quote:
7. Is predomintaly Scot-irish and English in ancestry (except the 3 counties near ohio)
You do understand that these are two DISTINCT cultures, right?
So many lump the "Bloody Anglish" and the Scots - Irish as the same when they historically hated each other and fought with each other. UK is a "leasehold" country and Scots - Irish were tenants, not owners.
English in America = land grant (Federalist)
Scots - Irish in America = workers (Democratic - Republicans)
My family are very early Scots - Irish in America and trust me, they came here to get the hell away from English oppression in the4 UK.
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