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re: Really Solid Take By Josh Pate
Posted on 11/7/22 at 7:51 am to CrimsonCrusade
Posted on 11/7/22 at 7:51 am to CrimsonCrusade
quote:
I also remember sunshine pumpers by the later part of the "Dark Ages," around 2006, saying that we just had to lower our expectations because this is what Alabama football was going to be in the modern age.
I don't remember this at all. People gave Shula some slack in 2003 and 2004 due how he was hired, probation, and a depleted roster. However, after the 10-win season in 2005, expectations suddenly shot up. I remember very vividly wanting Shula fired after the 2006 loss to Arkansas. I wasn't alone.
The "sunshine pumpers" you remember were members of the media (particularly the national press) who thought we were mad for wanting to fire Shula after only four seasons.
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 7:54 am
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Posted on 11/7/22 at 7:51 am to Shocco
quote:
How hard is it to hire people who have a proven skill set at their job and wants to work for him for lots of money.
I actually think this is something that is getting overlooked to be honest because I do not think it is easy for Saban to hire. I have read he is one of the hardest HC to work under and his expectations are on another level. That would suggest to me that it may be a lot harder to get a great OC & DC at UA under him. As someone mentioned earlier the 2 best OC hires he had were rehab hires of coaches who had only a few options.
When Saban retires I think UA will be getting calls from every agent who represents a HC but finding people to work under Saban I do not think is as easy.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 8:01 am to TideWarrior
And it's not like Saban has hired big name guys at OC and DC until recently. Here are all the OCs to coach under Saban since arriving at Alabama:
2007: Major Applewhite
2008-2011: Jim McElwain
2012-2013: Doug Nussmeier
2014-2016: Lane Kiffin
2017: Brian Daboll
2018: Mike Locksley
2019-2020: Steve Sarkisian
2021-2022: Bill O'Brien
None of them, with the possible exception of Steve Sarkisian, were very well thought of when they arrived at Alabama. Lane Kiffin was a big name but everyone assumed after what happened to him at USC that he was washed up. The same thing holds true with Sark. O'Brien was a gamble on a similar level with Kiffin and Sark that ended up not panning out. It happens.
2007: Major Applewhite
2008-2011: Jim McElwain
2012-2013: Doug Nussmeier
2014-2016: Lane Kiffin
2017: Brian Daboll
2018: Mike Locksley
2019-2020: Steve Sarkisian
2021-2022: Bill O'Brien
None of them, with the possible exception of Steve Sarkisian, were very well thought of when they arrived at Alabama. Lane Kiffin was a big name but everyone assumed after what happened to him at USC that he was washed up. The same thing holds true with Sark. O'Brien was a gamble on a similar level with Kiffin and Sark that ended up not panning out. It happens.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 8:35 am to TideWarrior
quote:
I actually think this is something that is getting overlooked to be honest because I do not think it is easy for Saban to hire. I have read he is one of the hardest HC to work under and his expectations are on another level. That would suggest to me that it may be a lot harder to get a great OC & DC at UA under him. As someone mentioned earlier the 2 best OC hires he had were rehab hires of coaches who had only a few options.
He also dictates scheme, personnel, and even the playbook to a high degree. It’s definitely not a situation where coordinators come in and get free reign to do their thing - they’re very much running “Alabama’s” stuff, as many have noted. It’s worked, obviously, but I think it’s definitely one of the ways Saban’s preferences have made us work from a handicap at various times, particularly on offense. And I’ve got to imagine it makes our coordinator jobs less appealing.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 8:38 am to TideWarrior
quote:
I have read he is one of the hardest HC to work under and his expectations are on another level. That would suggest to me that it may be a lot harder to get a great OC & DC at UA under him. As someone mentioned earlier the 2 best OC hires he had were rehab hires of coaches who had only a few options.
This right here has quite a lot to do with the situation.
In a real world career situation, how many people that are good at what they do want to go work for someone that will micromanage all your decisions and every moment of your time. At some point, you have to find the most qualified people, get out of their way and let them do their job. If you trust them enough to hire them, trust them enough to do their job without sitting on their every move.
When your sole purpose in hiring is to only hire people that are followers and don't challenge you, you will eventually fail.
This is one reason the team was successful when Kiffin was here. He challenged Saban to do what was necessary. Saban didn't like it because he ultimately couldn't control him. Not to say Kiffin is the most mature individual, but he is good at what he does.
I really appreciate Saban and what he has done here but he does struggle in hiring. The really good ones likely will not come here because they know they won't have the freedom they need to be successful. We only got Kiffin and Sark due to their personal situations at the time.
I do believe the situation will only improve if there is complete change in the mindset at the top. At 71 years of age, not sure we are going to see that happen. I hate it, but it's where we are.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 8:45 am to RollTide1987
quote:
The "sunshine pumpers" you remember were members of the media (particularly the national press) who thought we were mad for wanting to fire Shula after only four seasons.
There were a ton of fans still on the Shula band wagon in late 2006. I was fighting them tooth and nail over on TI. Was called a “Microwave Fan” because I expected instant results from Shula, who was called a “gourmet cook.”
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 8:46 am
Posted on 11/7/22 at 8:52 am to tide06
quote:
My point is BOB needs to go, but our offensive decline isn’t just about coaching. I don’t think anyone but Bryce and Gibbs would start for 2020 Bama and Gibbs wouldn’t be a feature back he would be a complement guy to Najee.
Bryce wouldn't start either but we don't need 2020 Bama to win our division or a NC. There isnt a team in the country that could keep it within 14 points. We need at best, 2017 Bama.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:05 am to FairhopeTider
quote:
I was fighting them tooth and nail over on TI. Was called a “Microwave Fan” because I expected instant results from Shula, who was called a “gourmet cook.
Well then those guys were idiots because you should have a pretty good handle on how a coach's tenure is going to continue after four seasons. If it takes longer than four years for a cook to fix a meal, he isn't a gourmet chef, he's just shitty at his job.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:12 am to RollTide1987
quote:
And it's not like Saban has hired big name guys at OC and DC until recently. Here are all the OCs to coach under Saban since arriving at Alabama:
2007: Major Applewhite
2008-2011: Jim McElwain
2012-2013: Doug Nussmeier
2014-2016: Lane Kiffin
2017: Brian Daboll
2018: Mike Locksley
2019-2020: Steve Sarkisian
2021-2022: Bill O'Brien
None of them, with the possible exception of Steve Sarkisian, were very well thought of when they arrived at Alabama. Lane Kiffin was a big name but everyone assumed after what happened to him at USC that he was washed up. The same thing holds true with Sark. O'Brien was a gamble on a similar level with Kiffin and Sark that ended up not panning out. It happens.
Lies. Locksley was known as one of the best recruiters and WR coaches in the country and the man who holds the keys to the DMV. Locksley also was the OC and the main recruiter during Illinois' Rose Bowl run. How many Rose Bowls has Illinois been to since he left?
Kiffin was just a big name? WTF?! I guess you didn't watch Kiffin when he was an assistant and then OC at USC. Kiffin was known to be cocky but an offensive play calling savant.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:15 am to TideWarrior
quote:
I actually think this is something that is getting overlooked to be honest because I do not think it is easy for Saban to hire. I have read he is one of the hardest HC to work under and his expectations are on another level. That would suggest to me that it may be a lot harder to get a great OC & DC at UA under him. As someone mentioned earlier the 2 best OC hires he had were rehab hires of coaches who had only a few options.
The guys that Saban looks at are typically on the cusp of becoming head coaches themselves. That's why we have had difficulty.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:18 am to ChromaticTide
“Alabama in name only”
Pretty fricking accurate
Pretty fricking accurate
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:28 am to tide06
You don't need NFL 1st round quality wide receivers to be successful. Boob just not good at developing players or the offense. Why can't people understand that?
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 9:32 am
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:30 am to Shocco
quote:
This is all on Saban
How hard is it to hire people who have a proven skill set at their job and wants to work for him for lots of money. Except for 2-3 OCs, Saban seems to go after these 'tweeners' that are sort of borderline projects. Sometimes I wonder if he just hires off other people's recommendations. Most of his OCs seem to be people he thinks he can just plug then into his play book and they just call plays like its a bingo game....But as you are indicating, his history of bad hires is starting to show a track record.
It's not as easy as it sounds. Saban is known as a perfectionist, workaholic, micromanager, and a real a-hole as a boss. The people that know him and have worked for him before are usually ok with that. You know what you are getting into when you take the job. Unless you want to build your resume, many coaches will take a job elsewhere that requires less dedication and hard work. Why do you think so many ex-Saban coaches are working in Athens? Similar pay, similar results, very different atmosphere and work environment. CNS has to take chances on guys that are hungry and willing to put up with him (they think) and the workload (again, they think). Then reality slaps them in the face and they are looking to bail the first chance they get before they end up divorced. That's the ugly truth many don't want to recognize about staff changes in Tuscaloosa.
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 9:33 am
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:31 am to Shaft Williams
quote:
Kiffin was known to be cocky but an offensive play calling savant.
I'll grant you with Locksley, however, I remember very vividly the backlash we received with the Lane Kiffin hire. Most people described Saban as desperate for going after the guy and even Joel Klatt referred to Kiffin as a vanity play caller.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:44 am to ChromaticTide
I enjoyed his take, I live in Auburn so family and friends are mostly barners. Football talk with them regarding this years team is ehh….
It was good to hear that other people outside of us are seeing it the same way.
It was good to hear that other people outside of us are seeing it the same way.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 9:48 am to RunLikeGump
This is when I appreciate folks like Boz getting little tidbits of info from sauces that Golding or BOB have been told to GTFO in no uncertain terms, and they are job shopping.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:02 am to ChromaticTide
I listened on my drive in this morning. He’s 100% correct on everything.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:10 am to RunLikeGump
quote:When people outside the program are talking about how we have fallen, its time to get serious. And its all over the media right now. Not sure how anyone can refute what Pate is saying.
It was good to hear that other people outside of us are seeing it the same way.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:25 am to ChromaticTide
That was excellent, thanks for posting.
I’ve calmed down since Saturday and this helped put things in a little more perspective.
I’ve calmed down since Saturday and this helped put things in a little more perspective.
Posted on 11/7/22 at 10:32 am to phil4bama
I can understand the thought that BOB will be gone after the season ends, after all there are so many HC vacancies this year it only makes sense to speculate that he will be offered one of those jobs, especially because of what he did at Penn State, but that doesn’t equate to Saban running him off.
The issues on defense have been obvious for years, and there has been zero indication that Saban is willing to run Golding out of town. Maybe things have gotten bad enough that Saban will consider making staff changes everywhere, but there isn’t any past evidence to base that on. Just because it makes sense to take action doesn’t mean Saban will take action.
I agree that it’s probably a little too early to be talking about the end of the dynasty today; however, if Saban makes no significant staff changes after this season, it’ll be past time to start talking about it, and time to embrace it.
If Golding is still here and BOB is only replaced because he leaves for another opportunity, then it’s highly likely that the dynasty is over, and time for this fan base, this entitled emotional fan base, to behave with some dignity and class toward the man who brought Alabama back to greatness, the man who is THE GOAT, the man who has given more to this team and University, than any poster on the board.
This fan base owes Nick Saban that much, and he deserves to stay or leave on his own terms, in whatever time he chooses.
The issues on defense have been obvious for years, and there has been zero indication that Saban is willing to run Golding out of town. Maybe things have gotten bad enough that Saban will consider making staff changes everywhere, but there isn’t any past evidence to base that on. Just because it makes sense to take action doesn’t mean Saban will take action.
I agree that it’s probably a little too early to be talking about the end of the dynasty today; however, if Saban makes no significant staff changes after this season, it’ll be past time to start talking about it, and time to embrace it.
If Golding is still here and BOB is only replaced because he leaves for another opportunity, then it’s highly likely that the dynasty is over, and time for this fan base, this entitled emotional fan base, to behave with some dignity and class toward the man who brought Alabama back to greatness, the man who is THE GOAT, the man who has given more to this team and University, than any poster on the board.
This fan base owes Nick Saban that much, and he deserves to stay or leave on his own terms, in whatever time he chooses.
This post was edited on 11/7/22 at 10:36 am
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