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re: Dee Hart? And the Poor Return Game
Posted on 7/1/13 at 11:40 pm to AllBamaDoesIsWin
Posted on 7/1/13 at 11:40 pm to AllBamaDoesIsWin
I tend to agree with ABDIW regarding the shiftiness between the Jones.
Cyrus Jones didn't seem as much as a liability when he was returning kicks, which is more about speed and acceleration through the crease than being shifty. When he was put on punts, it's more about it. 90% of the time, the 1st move on a PR is a juke. Chris Jones has proven, albeit not securely, that he can get yardage. Now being more shifty than fast doesn't necessarily exclude Chris Jones from KR success, but it may be hard to grade above average across a season.
Like when Javier Arenas returned kicks, everyone assumed he'd have the same impact as he did on punts. Instead, he was an average KR up until his Senior year(and it was a career low on attempts). He didn't have the pure speed to house a kickoff, but he was still able to gain the yardage.
There's no sure fire returner that has revealed himself as of now, nor is there one that's a great decision maker with good hands. I think Cyrus Jones may keep his KR spot, but I think they'll try to work in Hart or maybe Foster(if he makes it in) because they know what they have in Chris Jones. He may not lose it, but just to check for alternatives. Maybe even one of the freshman RBs save Henry...
Cyrus Jones didn't seem as much as a liability when he was returning kicks, which is more about speed and acceleration through the crease than being shifty. When he was put on punts, it's more about it. 90% of the time, the 1st move on a PR is a juke. Chris Jones has proven, albeit not securely, that he can get yardage. Now being more shifty than fast doesn't necessarily exclude Chris Jones from KR success, but it may be hard to grade above average across a season.
Like when Javier Arenas returned kicks, everyone assumed he'd have the same impact as he did on punts. Instead, he was an average KR up until his Senior year(and it was a career low on attempts). He didn't have the pure speed to house a kickoff, but he was still able to gain the yardage.
There's no sure fire returner that has revealed himself as of now, nor is there one that's a great decision maker with good hands. I think Cyrus Jones may keep his KR spot, but I think they'll try to work in Hart or maybe Foster(if he makes it in) because they know what they have in Chris Jones. He may not lose it, but just to check for alternatives. Maybe even one of the freshman RBs save Henry...
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Posted on 7/1/13 at 11:45 pm to MagillaGuerilla
That's a fair analysis. I would say, though, that while an opinion about Chris being shiftier is valid, I'm not buying the idea that Cyrus "doesn't have that," which is what started this whole thing in the first place.
ABDIW has a really abrasive way of stating his opinions as fact. I'm not buying this particular one.
I'm not even saying I think Cyrus should return kicks btw. Ball security is the most important component of a good kick returner. I'm just saying that while you can agree to disagree on who's shiftier, I think it's ridiculous to say Cyrus isn't. I personally think he's the better athlete, though I realize this doesn't mean he's shiftier, as I think you've done a good job parsing what exactly we mean when we say a player is shifty up there.
ABDIW has a really abrasive way of stating his opinions as fact. I'm not buying this particular one.
I'm not even saying I think Cyrus should return kicks btw. Ball security is the most important component of a good kick returner. I'm just saying that while you can agree to disagree on who's shiftier, I think it's ridiculous to say Cyrus isn't. I personally think he's the better athlete, though I realize this doesn't mean he's shiftier, as I think you've done a good job parsing what exactly we mean when we say a player is shifty up there.
Posted on 7/1/13 at 11:59 pm to MagillaGuerilla
quote:
I tend to agree with ABDIW regarding the shiftiness between the Jones.
Leave it to a JETS fan to take ABDiW's side....
Posted on 7/2/13 at 12:07 am to DocEllis
I wouldn't say Cyrus Jones is void of shiftiness personally, but I cannot recall anything from his year in college to say for sure one way or the other.
Chris Jones make his living in the slot being shifty to get open, Cyrus Jones has the look of a boundary CB(I.E fast with athleticism). It may be harder to discern his shiftiness at the position, but not that he may not have it. When's the last time you heard "shifty" about an outside corner back?
I understand ya now...
Chris Jones make his living in the slot being shifty to get open, Cyrus Jones has the look of a boundary CB(I.E fast with athleticism). It may be harder to discern his shiftiness at the position, but not that he may not have it. When's the last time you heard "shifty" about an outside corner back?
I understand ya now...
Posted on 7/2/13 at 12:10 am to VanBasten9
quote:
Leave it to a JETS fan to take ABDiW's side....
Hey, don't shoot me for giving an opinion Hernandez
:csb: moment, I found out yesterday that Derrick Henry is a Jets fan.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 12:15 am to MagillaGuerilla
I agree that it's not a position where you typically see lots of displays of shiftiness. ( ) But it's probably more about the nature of the position than the abilities of the players. The same things that makes someone shifty, agility, quickness, hips, etc. are part of the job description.
And to judge Cyrus's relative shiftiness based on what we saw his freshman year isn't really fair because of his lack of touches. (Though this was mostly his fault bc of ball security issues.) I will say the high step and go against FAU was pretty shifty imo, as was one of his punt returns against UT, the one that Calloway got called back on a holding call.
Again, I'm glad he moved to cb and don't care if he returns kicks, just disagree that he "doesn't have that." (Clearly, lol.)
) But it's probably more about the nature of the position than the abilities of the players. The same things that makes someone shifty, agility, quickness, hips, etc. are part of the job description. And to judge Cyrus's relative shiftiness based on what we saw his freshman year isn't really fair because of his lack of touches. (Though this was mostly his fault bc of ball security issues.) I will say the high step and go against FAU was pretty shifty imo, as was one of his punt returns against UT, the one that Calloway got called back on a holding call.
Again, I'm glad he moved to cb and don't care if he returns kicks, just disagree that he "doesn't have that." (Clearly, lol.)
This post was edited on 7/2/13 at 12:16 am
Posted on 7/2/13 at 12:37 am to DocEllis
To your credit, that indeed was a shifty return against UT.
Nice cut-up too, pretty good in the time frame of a sole discussion. That second song sounded familiar, I think adult swim used that as bump music before. Wasn't the only thing that was familiar on that page
Nice cut-up too, pretty good in the time frame of a sole discussion. That second song sounded familiar, I think adult swim used that as bump music before. Wasn't the only thing that was familiar on that page
Posted on 7/2/13 at 12:44 am to MagillaGuerilla
J Dilla - Donuts is a killer disc fyi. Highly recommended. 
Posted on 7/2/13 at 1:02 am to MagillaGuerilla
quote:
I wouldn't say Cyrus Jones is void of shiftiness personally, but I cannot recall anything from his year in college to say for sure one way or the other.
Chris Jones make his living in the slot being shifty to get open
This is what I was getting at.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 6:50 am to AllBamaDoesIsWin
I've been rewatching some of the games this past week, and I will say that Cyrus did look the part at times. But, in my foggy memory, my perception is that he muffed some and fumbled some. As far as "shiftiness", I'd say he has more than Christion. Christion looks like the typical "good" athlete returning punts. He can make some people miss, but he often makes his cuts too soon which allows the defense to recover. Cyrus seems to have a little more Javy in him - running AT the defense then making quick, hard cuts at the last second to squeeze through holes. But, catching and not fumbling is important.
I just haven't seen anyone on this team full of elite athletes that has wowed me at the position since Arenas. A good PR/KR can make a huge difference in games.
I just haven't seen anyone on this team full of elite athletes that has wowed me at the position since Arenas. A good PR/KR can make a huge difference in games.
This post was edited on 7/2/13 at 6:51 am
Posted on 7/2/13 at 8:23 am to Teague
quote:
I've been rewatching some of the games this past week, and I will say that Cyrus did look the part at times. But, in my foggy memory, my perception is that he muffed some and fumbled some. As far as "shiftiness", I'd say he has more than Christion. Christion looks like the typical "good" athlete returning punts. He can make some people miss, but he often makes his cuts too soon which allows the defense to recover. Cyrus seems to have a little more Javy in him - running AT the defense then making quick, hard cuts at the last second to squeeze through holes. But, catching and not fumbling is important.
I agreement with this assessment....
Posted on 7/2/13 at 9:04 am to Teague
Cyrus is a better returner than Christion imo.
But I find it hard to believe that we don't have someone on the roster that is easily better than both. Hopefully Dee is that guy.
But I find it hard to believe that we don't have someone on the roster that is easily better than both. Hopefully Dee is that guy.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 9:09 am to Chadaristic
quote:
But I find it hard to believe that we don't have someone on the roster that is easily better than both. Hopefully Dee is that guy.
Yeah, this is how I feel. I don't know how good Hart is, or if he'll even be back there, but he did look pretty good in limited action early last year. But, there has to be SOMEBODY on the team that would excel back there. Hell, Cooper, might be a great PR. He's got excellent hands and he can sure make people miss.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 9:12 am to Teague
quote:
Hell, Cooper, might be a great PR. He's got excellent hands and he can sure make people miss.
Not worth the injury risk though.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 9:21 am to Chadaristic
quote:
Not worth the injury risk though.
I disagree. He's out there every play on offense. He could get injured at any time, and most of those plays the ball isn't even coming to him. On PR's, he'd at least be making an impact every play. I don't agree with not playing players because you're afraid they'll be injured. Fifty great players sitting on the bench all game might look good, but they're not helping.
Posted on 7/2/13 at 2:31 pm to MagillaGuerilla
Cyrus is one smooth athlete.
Posted on 7/5/13 at 8:09 am to Teague
quote:staff feels the same way. But untl Morris shows us something, b sims will not be taking free shots.
If not Hart, who is going to do it? This is the one area that I don't feel Saban has done a superb job - special teams - especially the return game. Once Javy left, it's been pretty bad.
Posted on 7/5/13 at 12:28 pm to DocEllis
With confidence, I think Cyrus could be Arenas-esque. Probably has the best speed, quickness, agility combination on the team. I think it was the Tennessee game last year where he showed his potential.
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