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Butch Jones Underrated? Debatable.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:30 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:30 pm
CBS Sports writer Dennis Dodd believes that Butch Jones is underrated. Is he on crack?
Butch Jones Underrated
Primary points: state of VOLS prior to Jones; tangible progress since Jones took over the program; top 25 finishes; consecutive bowl wins; 2017 NFL draft success stories(basically, player development).
There are a lot of interesting points in the article, but I think the one thing he overlooks is game-day coaching decisions. There have been quite a few really bad ones and a select few great ones. The jury is still out on Jones but I believe the ice is much thinner than Dennis Dodd seems to believe.
Butch Jones Underrated
Primary points: state of VOLS prior to Jones; tangible progress since Jones took over the program; top 25 finishes; consecutive bowl wins; 2017 NFL draft success stories(basically, player development).
There are a lot of interesting points in the article, but I think the one thing he overlooks is game-day coaching decisions. There have been quite a few really bad ones and a select few great ones. The jury is still out on Jones but I believe the ice is much thinner than Dennis Dodd seems to believe.
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Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:36 pm to Torch
My Bammer take on Butch Jones is this
(1) Very good program manager. If you could hire a Chief Operations Officer to manage the program but not hire or fire or coach-in game, he'd be as good as anybody in CFB. He is clearly very good at planning an overall program strategy and implementing it. He does the same with recruiting. His PR schtick is over the top and he isn't very self-aware, but clearly it works with recruits and high school coaches. And it wouldn't be nearly as "laughable" if he was winning a bunch of games (like it wasn't "laughable" his first couple years when he said all that stuff).
(2) Below average football coach. Bad in-game, bad at tough decisions, mediocre at best at managing and building program cohesion in a coaching staff, mediocre at best at dealing with his players and getting the best out of them/putting them in situations to succeed.
I think that #1 has basically hit it's peak. He has the program running smoothly. That is a big deal after your last decade. However, #2 is needed to get past the current spot in the conference pecking order. I don't think #2 can be fixed.
The good news is, #1 has made the program most attractive to a replacement. It's stable, the roster is solid, the recruiting ties have been built and fortified. Everything is set for somebody who can do #1 well enough and do #2 to come in and immediately hit the ground running. It is an incredibly more attractive set up than it was when Butch took over. That's a big deal and he should get a lot of credit for that.
But, of course, that requires Butch being shown the door. And because of his good skill at #1 plus winning 7-9 games a season, that's not an easy sell (especially after the previous 2 head coaches).
(1) Very good program manager. If you could hire a Chief Operations Officer to manage the program but not hire or fire or coach-in game, he'd be as good as anybody in CFB. He is clearly very good at planning an overall program strategy and implementing it. He does the same with recruiting. His PR schtick is over the top and he isn't very self-aware, but clearly it works with recruits and high school coaches. And it wouldn't be nearly as "laughable" if he was winning a bunch of games (like it wasn't "laughable" his first couple years when he said all that stuff).
(2) Below average football coach. Bad in-game, bad at tough decisions, mediocre at best at managing and building program cohesion in a coaching staff, mediocre at best at dealing with his players and getting the best out of them/putting them in situations to succeed.
I think that #1 has basically hit it's peak. He has the program running smoothly. That is a big deal after your last decade. However, #2 is needed to get past the current spot in the conference pecking order. I don't think #2 can be fixed.
The good news is, #1 has made the program most attractive to a replacement. It's stable, the roster is solid, the recruiting ties have been built and fortified. Everything is set for somebody who can do #1 well enough and do #2 to come in and immediately hit the ground running. It is an incredibly more attractive set up than it was when Butch took over. That's a big deal and he should get a lot of credit for that.
But, of course, that requires Butch being shown the door. And because of his good skill at #1 plus winning 7-9 games a season, that's not an easy sell (especially after the previous 2 head coaches).
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 12:46 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:48 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
But, of course, that requires Butch being shown the door. And because of his good skill at #1 plus winning 7-9 games a season, that's not an easy sell (especially after the previous 2 head coaches).
Completely agree with this, but I believe that in the next 2-3 seasons, the bold portion will change. The hunger is beginning to hit the VOLS fans. The sting of Kiffin/Dooley is fading into memory, and being outweighed by the memories of the Pumpkin King and Manning era. On top of this, Butch Jones has a contract through 2020. I don't believe he will get an extension without a trip to ATL, win or not. That gives him 2-3 years to punch the ticket, and also gives the AD time to start looking and build a list of potential hires. I love all the work the Jones has put in. He has put the program on his shoulders and lifted us out of the pit of despair. I just don't see him making it into the 2020s as our coach unless his managerial skills pull in the supporting staff to move us to the next level. He has shown willingness to improve the staff, but will it be enough?
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:50 pm to Torch
quote:
Completely agree with this, but I believe that in the next 2-3 seasons, the bold portion will change
I agree - I guess I was thinking more short term, as in possibly being fired after 2017 or 2018.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:56 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:
possibly being fired after 2017 or 2018.
I see VOLS waiting out a couple more years, letting the buyout drop down, and getting him into that last year of his contract where the "extend or fire" decision comes into play. If he makes it to ATL prior to this, I believe this will be an extension. All of this is based on the assumption that he doesn't have a train-wreck season. If he lives up to his norm of 8 wins, I don't think he will be sent away much earlier than 2019.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 12:58 pm to Torch
quote:
I don't think he will be sent away much earlier than 2019.
Yep, agree. And, he probably shouldn't. It'd be one thing if he had cleaned it up and was going 6-6 (see Mike Shula), but going 8-4 and finishing in the Top 25 is not really fireable until it becomes a clear glass ceiling that cannot be breached.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 1:12 pm to Torch
He put out the dumpster fire.
He brought in a ton of talent.
He has the program stabilized.
Now if he could just coach.
He brought in a ton of talent.
He has the program stabilized.
Now if he could just coach.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 2:24 pm to SavageOrangeJug
If Scott turns out to be an average-to-above-average OC and Shoop fixes last year's deficiencies we could truly have a stellar program.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 6:48 pm to Torch
I truly believe Butch is going to be our version of Richt
Posted on 6/1/17 at 7:24 pm to VolInBavaria
I would get a I <3 Lyle tattoo on my arse cheek if Butch Jones led Tennessee to two SEC titles
Posted on 6/1/17 at 7:47 pm to David Ricky
quote:
This post has been bookmarked.
I would get a I <3 Lyle tattoo on my arse cheek if Butch Jones led Tennessee to two SEC titles
...and you can bet that same arse we will hold you to it.
Posted on 6/1/17 at 9:02 pm to David Ricky
quote:
I would get a I <3 Lyle tattoo on my arse cheek if Butch Jones led Tennessee to two SEC titles
Same here. I meant it though in the sense that he wins just enough games every season to keep from getting fired but also loses enough to where the fans bitch every season that we need change. I'll always respect Butch for coming to UT and turning our program around. There's no doubt it is in much better shape now than it was when he took the job. You can tell he loves UT but I think for him to take that next step as a coach he has to hand over more control to his coaching staff, let them do their jobs and stop micro managing everything. Also, I wish he'd stop with the cliches and just tell everyone like it is. If you don't like what someone did, call them out on it. We need a football coach, not someone who is going to sugarcoat everything. I have my doubts about him but I'm willing to give him 1 more year to prove himself to me, but if he doesn't I hope we have a new head coach in 2018. Tennessee shouldn't be happy with 8 wins a season. That should be the floor at a place like Tennessee. I can understand having a down season sometimes but 8 wins shouldn't be the new norm here. It's just really frustrating seeing the team and program I've absolutely adored my entire life be like it is now
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 9:03 pm
Posted on 6/1/17 at 11:38 pm to Torch
The fact of the matter is he is an excellent coach in every facet except one.......coaching......and we always refer to that to something along the lines of "game day coaching" but game day coaching is set up by game planning and coaching during the week at practice
It is a weakness in all facets of X's and O's
Of course his other problem is flat out refusing to adjust or change his offense to the strengths of his personel (see read option with Worley/slow developing read plays with Hurd)
The man has done a lot for our program and I am forever appreciative but these issues need to be addressed and so far there is absolutely no evidence that it will ever change, I think this year is the make or break year with Scott coming in and Shoop POSSIBLY being allowed to truly run the show on D. If nothing changes with those things it never will and we will have to resign ourselves to firing him at some point to get where we want to be
ETA: not to get long winded but do yall know Who else wasn't a great X's and O's coach? The pumpkin king himself, long may he Reign, Sir Phillip Fulmer. The difference is Fulmer was able to trust his assistants and allow them to work in their areas of strengths
Of course this led to other issues such as Fulmer struggling a bit once his stellar assistants were hired away or left but that's another discussion
It is a weakness in all facets of X's and O's
Of course his other problem is flat out refusing to adjust or change his offense to the strengths of his personel (see read option with Worley/slow developing read plays with Hurd)
The man has done a lot for our program and I am forever appreciative but these issues need to be addressed and so far there is absolutely no evidence that it will ever change, I think this year is the make or break year with Scott coming in and Shoop POSSIBLY being allowed to truly run the show on D. If nothing changes with those things it never will and we will have to resign ourselves to firing him at some point to get where we want to be
ETA: not to get long winded but do yall know Who else wasn't a great X's and O's coach? The pumpkin king himself, long may he Reign, Sir Phillip Fulmer. The difference is Fulmer was able to trust his assistants and allow them to work in their areas of strengths
Of course this led to other issues such as Fulmer struggling a bit once his stellar assistants were hired away or left but that's another discussion
This post was edited on 6/1/17 at 11:40 pm
Posted on 6/2/17 at 4:35 am to Wishnitwas1998
quote:
ETA: not to get long winded but do yall know Who else wasn't a great X's and O's coach? The pumpkin king himself, long may he Reign, Sir Phillip Fulmer.
He was a horrible "game day" coach.
He covered it because he was the best recruiter in the nation. His teams had so much talent they were able to overcome on the field his mistakes on the sideline.
quote:
The difference is Fulmer was able to trust his assistants and allow them to work in their areas of strengths
Exhibit A would be Fulmer with Cut and without him.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 4:45 am to SummerOfGeorge
It's like you just said to the author "oh you challenge the narrative? Well here's what I think... [inserts the very narrative that has just been challenged sans substantive examples or any example at all]."
Posted on 6/2/17 at 7:07 am to Torch
quote:
Primary points: state of VOLS prior to Jones; tangible progress since Jones took over the program;
No one can deny that he looks great compared to Derek Dooley.
Hey - when is Coach Mason's contract up? The Vandy fans were pretty sad when James Franklin ran away. Getting Coach Mason to come to the Hill would be spectacular.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 7:13 am to Wishnitwas1998
quote:
ETA: not to get long winded but do yall know Who else wasn't a great X's and O's coach? The pumpkin king himself, long may he Reign, Sir Phillip Fulmer. The difference is Fulmer was able to trust his assistants and allow them to work in their areas of strengths
You make a lot of good points. Didn't the Vols attempt an 'out of the blue' onside kick against the Gators, maybe in '96? Phil called that one.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 7:45 am to VolInBavaria
quote:
Tennessee shouldn't be happy with 8 wins a season. That should be the floor at a place like Tennessee.
Right. Knoxville and Nashville are about the only two SEC towns that are real cities. Knoxville is very well situated for recruits from elsewhere to come to and still not be too far from home. Plus we have world class facilities and we have the 'now rapidly fading into the past' stellar heritage.
We should never lose to South Cackalacky or Vandy. Ever.
Actually I think Columbia is sorta kinda a real city but it is in South Carolina. Yuck.
Posted on 6/2/17 at 9:55 pm to SummerOfGeorge
quote:Losing to Vandy twice should be fireable with cause.
going 8-4 and finishing in the Top 25 is not really fireable until it becomes a clear glass ceiling that cannot be breached
This post was edited on 6/2/17 at 10:01 pm
Posted on 6/2/17 at 10:40 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
You make a lot of good points. Didn't the Vols attempt an 'out of the blue' onside kick against the Gators, maybe in '96? Phil called that one. ReplyOptionsTop 00
Not that I recall but that doesn't mean it didn't happen
Sounds indescribably unlikely though
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