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Was I stupid to think that Mizzou would contend for SEC basketball titles?
Posted on 3/11/16 at 8:59 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 8:59 am
I seem to remember Mizzou having a strong basketball program before coming to the SEC. I remember thinking that Mizzou will strengthen the conferences basketball presence. What happened?
10
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:00 am to UpToPar
fecal naziism happened
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:01 am to UpToPar
The previous coach left the cupboard bare and KA isn't exactly the second coming of Phil Jackson. It happens.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:03 am to UpToPar
It will get turned around. Unfortunately it likely won't be for several years.
Mizzou has the 3rd most tourney appearances among SEC schools, top facilities and a great talent base to work with.
Will just take the right coach, but right now we are the lowest we've ever been.
Mizzou has the 3rd most tourney appearances among SEC schools, top facilities and a great talent base to work with.
Will just take the right coach, but right now we are the lowest we've ever been.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:18 am to UpToPar
quote:
What happened?
A series of stupid moves...leading to the two worst seasons in our entire history.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:21 am to 5thTiger
quote:
A series of stupid moves
bowel moves
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:29 am to Gradual_Stroke
quote:
fecal naziism happened
Pretty much this
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:31 am to UpToPar
quote:
Was I stupid to think that Mizzou would contend for SEC basketball titles?
No.
This was their last game in the Big XII:
It was completely rational to have expected Missouri to do better in MBB.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 9:32 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 9:43 am to UpToPar
When Mizzou came over it was impossible to predict the problems that they were going to have. I still think they will come out of it in a few years and be a good basketball program.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:10 am to GnashRebel
We'll be back. But it's going to take a while. It's a total re-build.
Ex-AD Alden drove the program sub-ground over the past decade with poor hires and bad management...with piss-poor help from some coaches.
See AaronB4 below for the gory details.
Ex-AD Alden drove the program sub-ground over the past decade with poor hires and bad management...with piss-poor help from some coaches.
See AaronB4 below for the gory details.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 4:13 pm
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:14 am to UpToPar
Mike Anderson had them looking solid then left to go home at Arkansas. For some reason they essentially took a waiver on Frank Haith from Miami in spite of the Shapiro allegations. He cheated and wasn't even good at it at Miami or Missouri. Middling results at best. Once he screwed them they made the safe hire of alum Kim Anderson. He is kind of hamstrung but even with a full assortment of talent he still makes Johnny Jones look like Bobby Fischer.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:19 am to GetCocky11
Where to start? The decay and ruination of the Mizzou basketball program that was something that took years. This post will probably get pretty long, but I'll do my best to keep it short.
April 1999: Norm Stewart is forced out by new AD Mike Alden (& most likely some boosters) Norm had been there 32 years with very good success, but his program had plateaued with only 1 NCAA in his last 4 years. Most people, while being a bit leery of how it went down, were ok with Norm retiring.
Quin Snyderwas hired soon after. He was the hotshot top assistant to Coach K at Duke. On paper, a slam dunk hire. The runner up? Some bum named Bill Self. John Calipari was also very interested in the job at that time. This version of Calipari was the one who was still in some trouble for the UMASS mess and had been axed from the NBA. Those around the program with good basketball knowledge wanted Self, the boosters wanted Snyder.
Snyder: learned a couple of big things. First, you can't get away with some recruiting things at Mizzou that you could at Duke. He quickly got into minor NCAA trouble because of this. The other big thing, while you may be able to get top 20 type recruits to listen & even visit campus, they're probably not committing to Mizzou unless there's some sort of connection. Snyder placed "2cd" on several top level recruits, often failing to have much of a backup plan. He also tended to recruit national guys over quality local kids. David Lee to FL is a big one here. Snyder pretty much ignored Lee while chasing a bum from Detroit.
Snyder did have some early success and talent, making an Elite 8, but just couldn't keep it going. He was in over his head which lead him on a downward spiral. Drug use, affairs, more trouble with the NCAA, all led to his ouster. He's now clean and coaching in the NBA. He could always coach, but he was just too inexperienced to handle everything at the time.
Leads to Mike Anderson: Make Alden was very nearly fired the day Mike Anderson was hired. I'm dead serious. Due to how everything with Snyder went down, a strong push was made to oust Alden. Probably the only thing that saved him was football. Suitcase was a very solid hire and got everything righted for the most part. Even got the Tigers to an Elite 8. Reason I call him suitcase is this: I think it was three straight years he used other job openings as a means to get a raise. I know he used GA and I think either Oregon or Washington to do this. This eventually starting to bother everyone, including Mike Alden. His last season, everyone knew Arkansas was going to open up and would be a very real threat to take Anderson. Once again, he sought another raise. Supposedly, a verbal agreement was in place and Alden thought that Anderson was coming back. Then, Anderson and his agent shut out all communication with Mizzou and the next thing you knew, he was at Arkansas. Most believe that Anderson long knew he was going to Arkansas. Why? Because Anderson didn't recruit a single kid to Mizzou his last year. No one!
Mike Alden: because of Snyder's issues with the NCAA and because of how Anderson's flirtations went, become an extreme micro manager of the basketball program. In short, he didn't trust his basketball coaches to run a good clean program.
Matt Painter: why his name? Alden went after the Purdue coach hard, and they actually come to an agreement. Painter was to be the next coach at Mizzou. Problem? Alden let Painter get back on the plane and while sleeping on it that night, Painter backed out of the deal. This really screwed Alden because he had no backup plan. There's stories of Alden wandering around the Final Four, briefcase in hand, looking for anyone that would be interested in the job.
Frank Haith: which is how we get here. Alden probably thought he'd found gold with Haith. The quick look showed a coach at a Power 5 school that poured very little resources into their basketball program. Despite that, he'd had some minor successes. Alden probably thought, because this is how it was sold to us, that in the right environment, Haith could be a tremendous coach.
Signed, sealed, and delivered. Then, the NCAA crap at Miami implicated Haith and pretty much proved that Haith was dirty, and had lied to Alden. He should have been fired on the spot, but Alden chose to stick with him which further doomed the program. Recruiting was screwed at that point. Haith couldn't recruit quality HS kids because of the NCAA stuff, so he was left chasing transfers. Some worked out, others never even played in a game at Mizzou.
Haith won Mizzou's last Bevo12 tourney and had Mizzou as a 2 seed in the NCAA, with Anderson's players. The program proceeded to get worse each season, and with the trust between Haith and Alden destroyed, Haith decided to take the easy way out and left for Tulsa.
Alden went hard after Greg Marshall, supposedly even offering a 7 year, $20M package, but Marshall eventually balked. About 12 hours after Marshall's negotiations fell through, Mizzou hired Kim Anderson. Why? Because he was an alum who badly wanted the job.
Haith left the program in ruins, which is a big part of the reason he left. He knew he was going to be fired after the next season, so he got out while he could. He left a crappy roster filled with too little talent. One of his transfers tried to run down a player with his car. Another was too interested in getting high than actually trying to play. One of his rare freshmen supposed committed an armed robbery back in his hometown. Kim Anderson was the one who had to kick all these players off the team, despite him never having recruited them.
Mizzou's APR raking was trashed because of all the transfer's. Mizzou had no size and just a few role players on the team. Then, surprise surprise, Mizzou gets hit with an NCAA investigation. Seems like Haith and his staff were dirty. Never saw that one coming. So, Tulsa better watch out.
Anyway, that's a whole lot of background as to how Mizzou has gotten to where we are now.
Kim Anderson is a good man, but he's in over his head. Problem is, we're stuck with him for another year because there's no way any decent coach would step into this mess right now. The AD gauged interest, even floating out some contract #'s to a few candidates. Anderson is essentially taking one for the team, because he clearly loves Mizzou.
April 1999: Norm Stewart is forced out by new AD Mike Alden (& most likely some boosters) Norm had been there 32 years with very good success, but his program had plateaued with only 1 NCAA in his last 4 years. Most people, while being a bit leery of how it went down, were ok with Norm retiring.
Quin Snyderwas hired soon after. He was the hotshot top assistant to Coach K at Duke. On paper, a slam dunk hire. The runner up? Some bum named Bill Self. John Calipari was also very interested in the job at that time. This version of Calipari was the one who was still in some trouble for the UMASS mess and had been axed from the NBA. Those around the program with good basketball knowledge wanted Self, the boosters wanted Snyder.
Snyder: learned a couple of big things. First, you can't get away with some recruiting things at Mizzou that you could at Duke. He quickly got into minor NCAA trouble because of this. The other big thing, while you may be able to get top 20 type recruits to listen & even visit campus, they're probably not committing to Mizzou unless there's some sort of connection. Snyder placed "2cd" on several top level recruits, often failing to have much of a backup plan. He also tended to recruit national guys over quality local kids. David Lee to FL is a big one here. Snyder pretty much ignored Lee while chasing a bum from Detroit.
Snyder did have some early success and talent, making an Elite 8, but just couldn't keep it going. He was in over his head which lead him on a downward spiral. Drug use, affairs, more trouble with the NCAA, all led to his ouster. He's now clean and coaching in the NBA. He could always coach, but he was just too inexperienced to handle everything at the time.
Leads to Mike Anderson: Make Alden was very nearly fired the day Mike Anderson was hired. I'm dead serious. Due to how everything with Snyder went down, a strong push was made to oust Alden. Probably the only thing that saved him was football. Suitcase was a very solid hire and got everything righted for the most part. Even got the Tigers to an Elite 8. Reason I call him suitcase is this: I think it was three straight years he used other job openings as a means to get a raise. I know he used GA and I think either Oregon or Washington to do this. This eventually starting to bother everyone, including Mike Alden. His last season, everyone knew Arkansas was going to open up and would be a very real threat to take Anderson. Once again, he sought another raise. Supposedly, a verbal agreement was in place and Alden thought that Anderson was coming back. Then, Anderson and his agent shut out all communication with Mizzou and the next thing you knew, he was at Arkansas. Most believe that Anderson long knew he was going to Arkansas. Why? Because Anderson didn't recruit a single kid to Mizzou his last year. No one!
Mike Alden: because of Snyder's issues with the NCAA and because of how Anderson's flirtations went, become an extreme micro manager of the basketball program. In short, he didn't trust his basketball coaches to run a good clean program.
Matt Painter: why his name? Alden went after the Purdue coach hard, and they actually come to an agreement. Painter was to be the next coach at Mizzou. Problem? Alden let Painter get back on the plane and while sleeping on it that night, Painter backed out of the deal. This really screwed Alden because he had no backup plan. There's stories of Alden wandering around the Final Four, briefcase in hand, looking for anyone that would be interested in the job.
Frank Haith: which is how we get here. Alden probably thought he'd found gold with Haith. The quick look showed a coach at a Power 5 school that poured very little resources into their basketball program. Despite that, he'd had some minor successes. Alden probably thought, because this is how it was sold to us, that in the right environment, Haith could be a tremendous coach.
Signed, sealed, and delivered. Then, the NCAA crap at Miami implicated Haith and pretty much proved that Haith was dirty, and had lied to Alden. He should have been fired on the spot, but Alden chose to stick with him which further doomed the program. Recruiting was screwed at that point. Haith couldn't recruit quality HS kids because of the NCAA stuff, so he was left chasing transfers. Some worked out, others never even played in a game at Mizzou.
Haith won Mizzou's last Bevo12 tourney and had Mizzou as a 2 seed in the NCAA, with Anderson's players. The program proceeded to get worse each season, and with the trust between Haith and Alden destroyed, Haith decided to take the easy way out and left for Tulsa.
Alden went hard after Greg Marshall, supposedly even offering a 7 year, $20M package, but Marshall eventually balked. About 12 hours after Marshall's negotiations fell through, Mizzou hired Kim Anderson. Why? Because he was an alum who badly wanted the job.
Haith left the program in ruins, which is a big part of the reason he left. He knew he was going to be fired after the next season, so he got out while he could. He left a crappy roster filled with too little talent. One of his transfers tried to run down a player with his car. Another was too interested in getting high than actually trying to play. One of his rare freshmen supposed committed an armed robbery back in his hometown. Kim Anderson was the one who had to kick all these players off the team, despite him never having recruited them.
Mizzou's APR raking was trashed because of all the transfer's. Mizzou had no size and just a few role players on the team. Then, surprise surprise, Mizzou gets hit with an NCAA investigation. Seems like Haith and his staff were dirty. Never saw that one coming. So, Tulsa better watch out.
Anyway, that's a whole lot of background as to how Mizzou has gotten to where we are now.
Kim Anderson is a good man, but he's in over his head. Problem is, we're stuck with him for another year because there's no way any decent coach would step into this mess right now. The AD gauged interest, even floating out some contract #'s to a few candidates. Anderson is essentially taking one for the team, because he clearly loves Mizzou.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 10:26 am
Posted on 3/11/16 at 10:25 am to UpToPar
quote:
I remember thinking that Mizzou will strengthen the conferences basketball presence. What happened?
Even in Missouri's basketball heyday, they were a marginal power at best.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:06 am to AaronB4Mizzou
quote:
AaronB4Mizzou
Right down to the T.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:34 am to TigerTalker16
I think it was a bit silly to think that Missouri would contend for conference titles. The SEC basketball landscape is similar to the big 12, in that there is one school above all the others. Kentucky here, Kansas there. The difference is that there are other stronger programs in the SEC than in the Big 12.
Big 12 national titles since 1992: Kansas in 2008
SEC national titles since 1992: Arkansas in 1994, Kentucky in 1996 and 1998, Florida in 2006 and 2007 and Kentucky again in 2012.
Missouri hasn't won a regular season title since 1994. 1994 was the best Missouri team in history.
They went 28-4 in the regular season, 14-0 in conference, were a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney and make it to the elite 8. It ended up all being vacated.
They also played Arkansas's best team in history that year..
LINK
Big 12 national titles since 1992: Kansas in 2008
SEC national titles since 1992: Arkansas in 1994, Kentucky in 1996 and 1998, Florida in 2006 and 2007 and Kentucky again in 2012.
Missouri hasn't won a regular season title since 1994. 1994 was the best Missouri team in history.
They went 28-4 in the regular season, 14-0 in conference, were a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney and make it to the elite 8. It ended up all being vacated.
They also played Arkansas's best team in history that year..
LINK
Posted on 3/11/16 at 11:56 am to Dallasgrowl
quote:
Even in Missouri's basketball heyday, they were a marginal power at best.
We were playing in a far superior Big XII conference though. Had a lot of success there, so who would have thought we wouldn't have success against lesser competition?
Posted on 3/11/16 at 12:04 pm to Killean
Norm won or finished 2cd in conference in 15 of his 32 seasons. They also had 5 3rd place finishes and finished in the top half of conference 23/32 times. Norm took Mizzou to 16 NCAA's - but please note, the first 1/3 of Norm's tenure at Mizzou came when only conference champs made the NCAA. Norm was over half through his career when the NCAA expanded to the field of 64, so he had a few more teams that probably would have made the dance under today's rules. Norm also put more into winning the conference instead of the NCAA. It wasn't until the last 1/3 to 1/2 of his coaching career did they start putting emphasis on doing well in the NCAA too. It was just a different time/mindset.
As for the best team ever...
while I love that '93-'94 team, most Mizzou fans recognize a few others as being best. In terms of pure talent, the '88-'89 and '89-'90 teams were probably the best. They went 29-8 & 26-6 and were ranked #1 on multiple occasions.
The '88-'89 team beat Arkansas & three top 6 teams, the '89-'90 team also beat Arkansas & 7 ranked teams, including #1 twice.
The next best teams were probably in the early 80's with Steve Stipanovich, Jon Sundvold, and Ricky Frazer. They too achieved a #1 ranking before getting bounced in the NCAA's, once by Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma group.
One other quick note: the beakers (ku), didn't go on their prolonged conference dominance streak until after Norm retired.
As for the best team ever...
while I love that '93-'94 team, most Mizzou fans recognize a few others as being best. In terms of pure talent, the '88-'89 and '89-'90 teams were probably the best. They went 29-8 & 26-6 and were ranked #1 on multiple occasions.
The '88-'89 team beat Arkansas & three top 6 teams, the '89-'90 team also beat Arkansas & 7 ranked teams, including #1 twice.
The next best teams were probably in the early 80's with Steve Stipanovich, Jon Sundvold, and Ricky Frazer. They too achieved a #1 ranking before getting bounced in the NCAA's, once by Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma group.
One other quick note: the beakers (ku), didn't go on their prolonged conference dominance streak until after Norm retired.
This post was edited on 3/11/16 at 12:06 pm
Posted on 3/11/16 at 1:42 pm to Killean
quote:
I think it was a bit silly to think that Missouri would contend for conference titles.
I stopped reading after this. This is so bad on so many levels.
Posted on 3/11/16 at 2:11 pm to Dallasgrowl
"A marginal power at best" puts Mizzou in the top 4 in the SEC. Just as most rational fans don't expect MIZ to win 50% of East titles in football over the next 20 years, they shouldn't expect them to flounder in basketball over that period either.
A Florida will always be a good coaching hire from bouncing back in football because of the mass of talent. KC & Stl produce elite talent every year' in basketball, just have to have the right coach who is $mart enough to get the players without getting caught.
A Florida will always be a good coaching hire from bouncing back in football because of the mass of talent. KC & Stl produce elite talent every year' in basketball, just have to have the right coach who is $mart enough to get the players without getting caught.
Posted on 3/13/16 at 12:06 am to UpToPar
shite man, they got hosed. Wait until they're worth a shite before going anal.
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