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re: I guess it's Mizzou's week coming up. Unflattering OTL out
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:01 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:01 pm to Mizzou Fan in Da ATX
quote:
I understand the argument that he knew the players and wouldn't want to send them to jail, but his story is also that he was in a heated confrontation with them immediately - that he thought they had raped the person he says was his best friend.
See I think the other side isn't not wanting to turn in his team mates in order to protect them. I think the other side is him feeling that if his friend never reported it, then it's not his place to report it either.
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Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:06 pm to roadhouse
quote:
I doubt anybody disagrees with this. The fact is the university didn't do anything wrong and appeared to act within the necessary guidelines. If the girl doesn't report the rape to police, there isn't much that can be done. You can't character assassinate a bunch of college students based on what really amounted to a second-hand rumor involving a mentally unstable girl. Without a report from the victim, there is zero proof that it was not consensual. It may sound cold, but that is the harsh reality of this situation.
Agree with this. There's nothing damning about how the University reacted and there's nothing to support charges against anyone at this point. It's a huge tragedy IMO but she chose not to report it so there's no way I see to investigate or charge anyone. It doesn't change my belief that it happened and that too much of this is going on and there has to be something that can be done to curb these incidents.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:07 pm to reedus23
quote:
See I think the other side isn't not wanting to turn in his team mates in order to protect them. I think the other side is him feeling that if his friend never reported it, then it's not his place to report it either.
I agree. She trusted him enough to tell him about it. He could encourage her to report it, but if he reported it himself it himself, she would feel violated all over again. He couldn't abuse her trust like that.
If I were in that situation, and a friend came to me with that information? I would help as much as I could, and encourage them to get medical treatment and counseling. I'd also encourage them to report it to the police. But I wouldn't report it myself. They have to make that decision. Otherwise, you become someone else they can't trust.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:08 pm to semotruman
quote:
Perhaps the rape was a contributing factor, but you can't say it was the cause of her death.
I think then you start getting into chicken and egg arguments. If you are saying mental defect lead to allowing the rape another could counter that mental defect is no excuse to use by a rapist. If she was a borderline all along then they are strongly driven by avoidance of rejection. Such a person may behave differently than another without this issue. I would view the other side of the coin in that if I am the man, and a woman is clearly trashed or passed out I am not going to have sexual congress with her. Especially in the age of roofies I am going to avoid passed out or incoherent naked women as a clear signal of "go directly to jail, do not pass GO, do not collect 200 dollars"
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:08 pm to semotruman
quote:
Perhaps the rape was a contributing factor,
I thought Grits was saying the crime was the rape. If he's suggesting the rape directly lead to her suicide, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. It certainly played a role but no different than every other life experience this young lady had.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:10 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
I think then you start getting into chicken and egg arguments. If you are saying mental defect lead to allowing the rape another could counter that mental defect is no excuse to use by a rapist.
What in the ever loving frick?
You really pull shite out of your arse.
Christ
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:15 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
If she was a borderline all along then they are strongly driven by avoidance of rejection. Such a person may behave differently than another without this issue.
You mean like the rejection felt by her boyfriend breaking up with her? A circumstance that happened twice before in her life that was quickly followed by a suicide attempt each time. Once before she ever stepped foot on the Missouri campus.
This post was edited on 1/24/14 at 10:17 pm
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:19 pm to kilo
quote:
You really pull shite out of your arse. Christ
I don't see it this way. I take grits at her word that she has worked with victims. I think she identifies with the situation at some level and it makes her angry. I doubt mizzou bashing is what's on her mind. Given these circumstances whether mizzou is getting bashed isn't really one of my concerns either
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:21 pm to MIZ_COU
No one made that argument though. Not even remotely. All that was brought forth from semo that grits was responding to was the question of whether the alleged rape was a trigger for her suicide attempt or not.
This post was edited on 1/24/14 at 10:22 pm
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:22 pm to Cheese Grits
quote:
If you are saying mental defect lead to allowing the rape another could counter that mental defect is no excuse to use by a rapist.
No, I'm absolutely not saying that a mental defect led to her rape. That would be ridiculous. What led to her rape was young men on a power trip, because rape is a crime of power, not sex. They rape because they can, because they have no respect for women, because they want the ego boost. They rape because their moral center is twisted. Not because she was BPD.
Athletes need to realize they are higher profile that the average student, and act accordingly. Unless they are certain their partner is completely willing, and completely unimpaired, they need to walk away. Sadly, alcohol gets involved, and judgement goes out the window.
Saying her BPD led to her rape is as big a leap as saying the rape was directly responsible for her suicide, which was the comment you made that I disagreed with. Way too many other intervening factors.
This post was edited on 1/24/14 at 10:25 pm
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:24 pm to semotruman
quote:
They have to make that decision. Otherwise, you become someone else they can't trust.
That is a very real can of worms. Do you do what is best for the person long term or do you do what they want because that is what they want, even tho it puts them in harms way in the future. This even more complex when the issue is mental and not just physical. If your best friend from college is a serious schizophrenic do you allow them to become homeless, sleep on the street, and get beat up by folks who can? If they want to live that life do you allow it?
Do you feel the same if that same person - on their meds and being constantly treated - allows them to remain safe and cared for even if they tell you their life is "dulled" by such a routine? I would say being in a safe place sure beats the 3am calls from cops or hospitals when they were living the other life. The issue is not always what they want, but what is best for them. There are no easy answers but there are certainly levels of intervention to prevent another from destroying them self and those around them.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:36 pm to Cheese Grits
If Roladis could have prevented her from being raped, I'm sure he would have done so. If I could prevent something terrible from happening to someone I care for, I obviously would.
But this is different. This is after the fact, she's been raped and that damage has been done. Deciding to report it, or not, is her choice. I would have encouraged her to report it, and been there for her every step of the way if I were her friend. But rape is a crime of power and control. Taking that decision away from her takes even more power away from her.
Rape victims go through hell. They have to relive the crime again, and again, to numerous people, and, if it goes to court, they get raked over the coals by defense attorneys who make them out to be whores, drunks and idiots who somehow "ask" for it. They have to be prepared for that, and so it's their choice and their choice alone to decide whether or not to pursue it legally.
You're adding more and more layers of complexity to the situation. She wasn't schizophrenic, she had BPD. Borderlines aren't detached from reality like schizophrenics are.
But this is different. This is after the fact, she's been raped and that damage has been done. Deciding to report it, or not, is her choice. I would have encouraged her to report it, and been there for her every step of the way if I were her friend. But rape is a crime of power and control. Taking that decision away from her takes even more power away from her.
Rape victims go through hell. They have to relive the crime again, and again, to numerous people, and, if it goes to court, they get raked over the coals by defense attorneys who make them out to be whores, drunks and idiots who somehow "ask" for it. They have to be prepared for that, and so it's their choice and their choice alone to decide whether or not to pursue it legally.
You're adding more and more layers of complexity to the situation. She wasn't schizophrenic, she had BPD. Borderlines aren't detached from reality like schizophrenics are.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:38 pm to semotruman
quote:
Sadly, alcohol gets involved, and judgement goes out the window.
I think we can agree on this. I have watched drugs and booze destroy far too many lives around me.
quote:
What led to her rape was young men on a power trip
I think that is part of it, and if she was passed out there can also be a case of monkey see, monkey do or Lord of the Flies type groupthink. Once the first one goes, the others follow because a different level of acceptance has been created. As an outside observer you can see improper behavior, but if you were the second or third guy it may have reached a level of acceptance on their part.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:46 pm to Alahunter
Typical ESPN sensationalism.
They tell the story they want to tell, facts be damned.
An evil university covering up a rape is a big story and that's what they wanna tell, even though that's not what happened.
They tell the story they want to tell, facts be damned.
An evil university covering up a rape is a big story and that's what they wanna tell, even though that's not what happened.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:47 pm to semotruman
quote:
Borderlines aren't detached from reality like schizophrenics are.
I understand, was mainly trying to point out the very real situations of do we do what a person wants or what they really need? If I have lettuce in my teeth or my pits stink I would hope my real friends would let me know than walking around offending others. The bigger issue is there may be no perfect answer but some seem to work better even if they are uncomfortable at the start.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:51 pm to Cheese Grits
There are so many assumptions being made in this thread it's bordering on the "hypothetical" at this point. From all angles and viewpoints.
I don't in any form or fashion condone rape and think any Neanderthal that perpetrated such crimes should be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law. We are however a country of laws. Presumed innocence until proven otherwise is a cornerstone of our legal system in this country.
Only thing that is certain is that a troubled young woman took her life, and that is sad.
I don't in any form or fashion condone rape and think any Neanderthal that perpetrated such crimes should be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law. We are however a country of laws. Presumed innocence until proven otherwise is a cornerstone of our legal system in this country.
Only thing that is certain is that a troubled young woman took her life, and that is sad.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 10:52 pm to Cheese Grits
I see Cheese Grits is still spouting nonsense.
Posted on 1/24/14 at 11:11 pm to MIZ_STL
shite like this is what Grits lives for. She is a busybody looking to spout off her nonsense at every opportunity, especially if some good ole under the table Mizzou bashing is available.
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