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re: What if God is a trickster demon?
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:20 pm to sleepy gnostic
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:20 pm to sleepy gnostic
quote:
A basic tenant of Gnosticism is that the God of Abraham, which is the God of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism is actually a dark force, an ego driven demon type of being who has tricked humanity into worshiping his essence, tricking humans into mass murder and indefinite war against each other in the name of religion.
What you speak of here is Marcion of Sinope and Marcionism. Marcionism for all intents and purposes WAS Christianity during its Era of popularity. It was quite popular with Roman soldiers. It has been classed under the umbrella term of 'gnosticism' but in reality it was merely a strain of ancient Christianity that lost. He had two ginormous Churches that were bigger than anything the Church of Rome had. Marcion actually put together the first Canon and did so by throwing out the OT on the grounds that that OT God was evil and the God of his Christianity was not the same as the God of Abraham. When Marcion fell out of favor he was deemed a heretic and his views eventually made their way into the catch-all phrase of gnosticism but he's one of the least 'gnostic' gnostics.
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Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:25 pm to Person of interest
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quote:
Where, what verse?
Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
New International Version (NIV)
Deuteronomy 13:12-16New International Version (NIV)
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt,
Exodus 22:18 Thou shall not suffer a witch to live = Kill all the Pagans
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:31 pm to Prof
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ETA: Damn board format won't let me use greek or hebrew. How the frick am I supposed to say what I mean if I have to fricking transliterate??!!
IKR?
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:37 pm to Prof
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ETA: Damn board format won't let me use greek or hebrew. How the frick am I supposed to say what I mean if I have to fricking transliterate??!!
Thus is the problem with modern religion. Text and documents have been mistranslated, skewed, and changed so often that the original message has long since been replaced by propaganda.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:39 pm to KajunGator
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Thus is the problem with modern religion. Text and documents have been mistranslated, skewed, and changed so often that the original message has long since been replaced by propaganda.
So which ancient languages do you read?
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:49 pm to the808bass
I read none, nor am I implying that I do. Only stating that what is used as religious documents today (bible, quran, etc.) have been modified many times due to mis-translations, omissions, and editing.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 2:57 pm to KajunGator
Translation is editing at its core. Textual criticism is editing. They are inescapable with any text from another language. The question, to which you assumed an answer without any personal basis, is whether or not those decisions accurately reflect the original (or even received) text. I don't think your assumption is warranted.
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 3:23 pm to the808bass
quote:
I don't think your assumption is warranted.
So you do you think the story of Adam and Eve, as written today, is the same as was intended? Where two people populated the earth. Or should it use the Hebrew translation where adam (ha-adam) meant man/mankind, and the world was populated with the race of man and given Breath of Life (Eve)...
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 3:25 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 3:54 pm to CockInYourEar
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God told Moses to kill anyone that didn't believe in the one true god. He sanctioned mass murder, and has done so time and again throughout biblical text.
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Where, what verse?
In Deuteronomy 20 God commands the Israelites to exterminate everyone else in the vicinity of Israel. God gives them explicit instructions to kill every man and then keep every woman and child as slaves. Regarding the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites specifically, God commands that the Israelites kill every man, woman, child, and animal. They can take the property, but "leave alive nothing that breatheth." (Deuteronomy 20: 13-17)
In Numbers 31 Israel has defeated the Midianites. They have killed all the men and have brought the women, boys, girls, and animals to Moses as commanded. Moses gets all pissed off and says, "God told us to kill all the boys, too! And kill all the women, too! You can keep the virgin females for yourselves; everyone else must die!" And they do.
In Joshua 6 we have the Battle of Jericho. Israel followed God's commands and killed everyone, man, woman, and child, save for the prostitute Rahab, who had assisted Israel's vanguard spies. Rahab and her family were allowed to come home to Israel and die of old age.
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For most of my youth I relied on my [Christian] Sunday School teachers and ministers to educate me on The Holy Bible. Actually reading it revealed a great many things.
EDIT:
Now I'm not saying that any of this is "bad", per se. I personally believe that the good ol' Old Testament tactic of wiping out everyone could serve us well in the same godforsaken region of the world today. But that's beside the point.
What's laughable is the notion that GOD was once Patton on nordic shrooms and then came to earth in the form of John Lennon on wine. Your modern Israelites don't buy this shite, either! If you're a Jew then Jesus makes no sense. If you're a Christian then Jehovah doesn't, either. If you want to die a Christian then don't bother reading the Old Testament. The God you think you know ain't there.
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 4:08 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 4:21 pm to KajunGator
quote:
So you do you think the story of Adam and Eve, as written today, is the same as was intended? Where two people populated the earth. Or should it use the Hebrew translation where adam (ha-adam) meant man/mankind, and the world was populated with the race of man and given Breath of Life (Eve)...
Eve is not the nishmat chayyim or breath of life nor the more commonly used word ruach (which is spirit and also used for breath of life because of its meaning). You have to get into Hebrew theology and several Hebrew Texts in order to start discussing the ruach (spirit), nephesh, and neshamah which are all similar and sometimes used interchangeably for the spirit or breath that animates life (aka the breath) but have very different frames of reference and are conceptually understood as quite different in Hebrew/Jewish theology. And if you really want to get into the most nuanced understanding of ruach, nephesh, and neshamah then you must look to Kabbalistic understanding as well.
THIS IS ALL FOR WHAT AMOUNTS TO ONE WORD IN ENGLISH.
Translations are there for the ease of native speakers but to begin to understand any given text requires far more than what a small passage in Genesis says, especially in English.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 4:24 pm to KajunGator
quote:
So you do you think the story of Adam and Eve, as written today, is the same as was intended? Where two people populated the earth. Or should it use the Hebrew translation where adam (ha-adam) meant man/mankind, and the world was populated with the race of man and given Breath of Life (Eve)...
So, it's your position that Hebrews constructed an allegory and because most people don't know Adam is Hebrew for man that the potential allegory is hidden?
ETA: The idea that Genesis is allegory has been around forever. It's not a particularly heretical view nor is it all that uncommon. But you cannot say it was originally not an allegory and was changed into one with any credibility.
This post was edited on 2/27/15 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 2/27/15 at 4:52 pm to the808bass
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ETA: The idea that Genesis is allegory has been around forever. It's not a particularly heretical view nor is it all that uncommon. But you cannot say it was originally not an allegory and was changed into one with any credibility.
This. And it becomes particularly problematic to make that assumption when Genesis 1:1-2:3 is metered/poetic text while Genesis 2:4- is narrative voice, each provides 2 distinct authors/styles and tellings.
Cf. Genesis 1-2:4a with Genesis 2:4b-3:24.
And shall we get into details about J-writer (YHVH) and E-writer (ELOHIM)? And if we do what about P-writer? All in Genesis.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 4:57 pm to Prof
quote:
And shall we get into details about J-writer (YHVH) and E-writer (ELOHIM)? And if we do what about P-writer? All in Genesis.
I find Genesis and Job the most fascinating books in the bible. Closer to their roots.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 5:23 pm to the808bass
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So, it's your position
Honestly....my position is that ALL religion is b.s.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 6:51 pm to Prof
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Actually, Sleepy this is my academic field. I know a little.
That's a pretty odd statement to make as your first post in a thread.
From the strangeness of your initial comment, and your user un-friendly overkill paragraphs that followed, I figured you weren't worth reading.
What I said in the OP was a regurgitation of things I've read/heard by some highly regarded guys, I think I'll trust in them. Thanks for the contributions, though.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 6:58 pm to sleepy gnostic
Lol.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 7:09 pm to the808bass
You're 'church religious', yes?
Ltm (Laughing to myself).
Ltm (Laughing to myself).
Posted on 2/27/15 at 7:41 pm to sleepy gnostic
I am, your in depth analysis of Gnosticism notwithstanding. I have intensely reviewed my beliefs since you posted this thread. No epiphany yet shockingly enough.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 8:05 pm to the808bass
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I am,
One of the few all inclusive litmus tests.
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your in depth analysis
"rough sketch", "generalist, far from specialist" -- just a few keywords of mine from the thread.
Posted on 2/27/15 at 8:39 pm to sleepy gnostic
I'd ask of what it was a litmus test, but I don't care. You're well into mid-season form in a couple days. Hope you can last longer this time.
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